US Election 2020

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You know, minus the central planning and the promise of utopia, and the use of force.


Here is something for you. Very few people actually have confidence in their governments.
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Really?
It laid the foundations for the Spanish Civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

And the UK was well on the way there economically until Thatcher came along.

And interestingly, if you have a look at Sweden, all the government did was nationalise what the Church had already setup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_Sweden
I mean look at what Marx says here, regarding the importance of a Social Security net and looking at the benifits of some form of social health care (bolded)-

Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where, as in case of sickness or accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance—where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks— the case for the state’s helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong.

I can understand why people get triggered by socialised health care, given its proponent is the staunch architect of socialism.
 


Title 5, United States Code, authorizes me to implement alternative plans for pay adjustments for civilian Federal employees covered by the General Schedule and certain other pay systems if, because of “national emergency or serious economic conditions affecting the general welfare,” I view the increases that would otherwise take effect as inappropriate.

Specifically, I have determined that for 2021 the across-the-board base pay increase will be limited to 1.0 percent and locality pay percentages will remain at their 2020 levels. This alternative pay plan decision will not materially affect our ability to attract and retain a well‑qualified Federal workforce.

As noted in my Budget for Fiscal Year 2021, our pay system must reform to align with mission-critical recruitment and retention goals, and to reward employees whose performance provides value for the American people. For this purpose, my Budget further directs agencies to increase awards spending in FY 2021 by an amount equal to no less than 1 percent of total salary spending. My Administration will continue to support reforms that advance these aims.
 
I know a lot of people took what he said as gospel and ignored that he actually rejected unqualified laissez-faire capitalism, and they also tend to ignore the fact that he reserved a useful, limited economic role for government.
You are committing a massive straw-man there.
The only people who wholly reject the role of government are anarcho-capitalists (and it is a good idea to understand what their motivations are behind it, because they are not completely wrong on some things). Anarcho-communists are simply retarded, (hurr, lets get rid of the state by making a gigantic one).

I completely agree with Hayek's definitions for the role of government:
Although Hayek believed that government intervention in markets would lead to a loss of freedom, he recognized a limited role for government to perform tasks of which free markets were not capable:

The successful use of competition as the principle of social organization precludes certain types of coercive interference with economic life, but it admits of others which sometimes may very considerably assist its work and even requires certain kinds of government action.[32]
While Hayek is opposed to regulations that restrict the freedom to enter a trade, or to buy and sell at any price, or to control quantities, he acknowledges the utility of regulations that restrict legal methods of production, so long as these are applied equally to everyone and not used as an indirect way of controlling prices or quantities, and without forgetting the cost of such restrictions:

To prohibit the use of certain poisonous substances, or to require special precautions in their use, to limit working hours or to require certain sanitary arrangements, is fully compatible with the preservation of competition. The only question here is whether in the particular instance the advantages gained are greater than the social costs they impose.[33]
He notes that there are certain areas, such as the environment, where activities that cause damage to third parties (known to economists as "negative externalities") cannot effectively be regulated solely by the marketplace:

Nor can certain harmful effects of deforestation, of some methods of farming, or of the smoke and noise of factories, be confined to the owner of the property in question, or to those willing to submit to the damage for an agreed compensation.[34]
The government also has a role in preventing fraud:

Even the most essential prerequisite of its [the market's] proper functioning, the prevention of fraud and deception (including exploitation of ignorance), provides a great and by no means fully accomplished object of legislative activity.[35]
The government also has a role in creating a safety net:

There is no reason why, in a society which has reached the general level of wealth ours has, the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom; that is: some minimum of food, shelter and clothing, sufficient to preserve health. Nor is there any reason why the state should not help to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance in providing for those common hazards of life against which few can make adequate provision.[36][37]
He concludes: "In no system that could be rationally defended would the state just do nothing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom#The_role_of_government

To give an example of the type of system he would approve of:
The social grant system that South Africa has is the right type of system. In that it is means tested and is cash based. I would go so far as to say that it should be increased (you know as opposed to the state financing tv stations, airlines and post offices).

What he wouldn't agree with, would be something like prescribed minimum benefits, which regulate the cost and availability of healthcare. To use a US example, Obamacare is completely authoritarian as it forced people to buy healthcare.
 
I can understand why people get triggered by socialised health care, given its proponent is the staunch architect of socialism.
Have you ever been to a state hospital here in the glorious people's republic of South Africa ? That is what socialised healthcare looks like.

So yes, I am absolutely terrified of socialism. I don't particularly want my wife to give birth on the floor in a dirty public hospital.
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/...e-birth-standing-up-buries-her-child-20190820
 
Have you ever been to a state hospital here in the glorious people's republic of South Africa ? That is what socialised healthcare looks like.

So yes, I am absolutely terrified of socialism. I don't particularly want my wife to give birth on the floor in a dirty public hospital.
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/...e-birth-standing-up-buries-her-child-20190820
I have been to one in the UK and the Netherlands. Really good.

P.S. that quote, actually seems like I was mistaken, it actually came from Hayek in his book called the Road to Serfdom. Not sure if you have heard of it before?
 
I have been to one in the UK and the Netherlands. Really good.

P.S. that quote, actually seems like I was mistaken, it actually came from Hayek in his book called the Road to Serfdom. Not sure if you have heard of it before?
Where do you find socialist hospitals in the UK or Netherlands?
 
Typical leftist narrative forgetting that those hospitals are found within strongly capitalist societies.

Bernie Sanders is a capitalist. It's not contradictory to believe that a country should have a strong private sector AND solid government services, and you should be able to delineate the roles that government should play in providing socialized services to people, in areas like healthcare, police, schools, public transport, and so on. By definition any service provided by the government is socialist in nature.
 
At least they aren’t paying random Bernie voters to walk by and “interview” on live tv.

Actually a step up for the democrat broadcasters considering how they approached polls in the past.
Until now that is :ROFL:
 
Have you ever been to a state hospital here in the glorious people's republic of South Africa ? That is what socialised healthcare looks like.

So yes, I am absolutely terrified of socialism. I don't particularly want my wife to give birth on the floor in a dirty public hospital.
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/...e-birth-standing-up-buries-her-child-20190820
What a load of nonsense. Socialised medicine involves a single payer. Do we have that here? No.

In this country around 80% of healthcare expenditure is spent on 20% of the people aka prohibitively v expensive private medical aid .

Socialised medicine would be taking the existing gov healthcare budget, adding the sum total of the private medical insurance industry which is now abolished and collected through taxation and then allocating it to hospitals, specialist, pharmacy and gp services. Single payer.

You are again arguing the straw man.

Current state hospitals have a fraction of the resources of private hospitals. Divide that equally and nobody would be giving both on floors.
 
Bernie Sanders is a capitalist. It's not contradictory to believe that a country should have a strong private sector AND solid government services, and you should be able to delineate the roles that government should play in providing socialized services to people, in areas like healthcare, police, schools, public transport, and so on. By definition any service provided by the government is socialist in nature.
Fok, this is a good articulation. If these folks can't understand this and continue arguing the straw man then there is no hope for them. It would be bad faith debating to the core.
 
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