US politics general thread

[RanzB]

The video perfectly exemplifies my response. Debating the alt-right and others of your ilk is an exercise in pointless surreality. Words become meaningless and the facade of civility is a mockery when the true agenda of the people you are debating is dishonestly represented.

The more salient point is that rietrot is bitching about you not engaging with others but can't "force myself to even watch one minute. " Same morons who say they won't watch this or that but will push through 100s of videos and links from bullshyte sites like ZH and say 'watch this'.

That's how it goes with conservatards. They don't want to engage themselves. They want others to submit.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

The more salient point is that rietrot is bitching about you not engaging with others but can't "force myself to even watch one minute. " Same morons who say they won't watch this or that but will push through 100s of videos and links from bullshyte sites like ZH and say 'watch this'.

That's how it goes with conservatards. They don't want to engage themselves. They want others to submit.

He did in fact watch a minute of it ... that's a whole 60 seconds more than any "libtard" gives a ZH article even if it is a direct quote from Reuters filled with simple facts, you know, as opposed to 12 minutes of drivel by a sub-par cross dressing wannabe comedian ...

 

[RanzB]

Oh look, there's one of them now..

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

They don't want to engage themselves

Oh look, there's one of them now..

 

[RanzB]

yikes, unable to watch the video, the words "full frontal" next to "samantha bee" is quite the barrier to entry

:erm:

 

[cerebus]

I pushed through to 2m30s ... zero difference or additional value of any kind in sight from the 1min mark. Hats off to anyone who's able to get through the whole clip without gnawing their own wrists off.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ then don't watch it, I care very much either way. Isn't it great we opened this dialogue?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

:erm:

still takes the effort of registering the video clip's thumbnail init? besides, that's satire, it's not even pretending to be a news source

 

[The_Assimilator]

Yep, I reluctantly have to agree with Dan Carlin when he says that in his view the only direction this leads is another civil war or uprising. Even a drastic action like impeaching Trump could have the unintended consequence of stoking the fire more.

Carlin is correct. Trump's support base is comprised of people like rietrot who will make up whatever s**t they want to excuse their Glorious Fuhrer's wrongs and their support of him, regardless of how wrong they are; attempting to engage in discourse with people who are that fanatical is like trying to debate with a member of a cult. You can't, because they are so convinced they're right that any attempt to show them otherwise merely reinforces their beliefs. It's Dunning-Kruger in effect on a massive scale, and the only thing that is going to pop people like this out of their cosy bubble of wilful ignorance and hate is something nasty like a war.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ then don't watch it, I care very much either way. Isn't it great we opened this dialogue?

did you suffer through the whole clip though? :wtf:

main problem with that clip being that the title claims to deliver something which is pretty much absent in the content, instead one is bombarded with boredom to the point of just not paying attention

I'd love to criticize the points it tries to get across, but I can't because it does such a piss poor job of getting those points across.

 

[cerebus]

did you suffer through the whole clip though? :wtf:

Sure, yes.

main problem with that clip being that the title claims to deliver something which is pretty much absent in the content, instead one is bombarded with boredom to the point of just not paying attention

Really? Because after the initial setup it becomes quite substantive, and it mirrors exactly the way that "debates" with alt-righters and white nationalists tend to go. If you find it mind-numbing and futile, well yes... that is somewhat the point.

 

[RanzB]

Trump's support base is comprised of people like rietrot who will make up whatever s**t they want to excuse their Glorious Fuhrer's wrongs and their support of him, regardless of how wrong they are; attempting to engage in discourse with people who are that fanatical is like trying to debate with a member of a cult..

Sure, yes.
Because after the initial setup it becomes quite substantive, and it mirrors exactly the way that "debates" with alt-righters and white nationalists tend to go. If you find it mind-numbing and futile, well yes... that is somewhat the point.

Ding ding ding.

Anything Trump does is 100% good according to the Trumpites here.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Really? Because after the initial setup it becomes quite substantive, and it mirrors exactly the way that "debates" with alt-righters and white nationalists tend to go. If you find it mind-numbing and futile, well yes... that is somewhat the point.

Give us a timestamp then so we can check it out without the "initial setup".

 

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Carlin is correct. Trump's support base is comprised of people like rietrot who will make up whatever s**t they want to excuse their Glorious Fuhrer's wrongs and their support of him, regardless of how wrong they are; attempting to engage in discourse with people who are that fanatical is like trying to debate with a member of a cult. You can't, because they are so convinced they're right that any attempt to show them otherwise merely reinforces their beliefs. It's Dunning-Kruger in effect on a massive scale, and the only thing that is going to pop people like this out of their cosy bubble of wilful ignorance and hate is something nasty like a war.

'Sfunny how often the words Dunning-Kruger have been surfacing in the background of my mind whenever Trump supporters are on display.

 

[buka001]

Yeah the Nazis belong to the crazy left. Their rasism angle just confuses some people, but we're seeing exactly the same totay with the leftist identity politics.

What you are doing here is exactly the point that is being made.

An unequivocal fact regarding the Nazi ideology is that it is the very definition of Far-Right political ideology.

Your blank faced denial of this fact is a systematic quality that makes such debates a pointless exercise.

I can throw numerous historical facts at you and without a shadow of a doubt you will go "Duh, it is in their name National Socialists", while ignoring what actual Nazi policy was regarding this.

Hitler made it clear, if the Marxist view (Under which he subsumed all socialist and left wing ideologies) was not "eradicated", Germany would not rise again. Hitler made it clear that he viewed the Weimar Republic as Marxist. Read his speech on the Enabling Act and it is clear what his views and ideologies are.

Staunch socialist warned of this. During the voting of the Enabling Act, Otto Wels, the leader of the Socialist Democrats, had the following to say -

After the persecutions that the Social Democratic Party has suffered recently, no one will
reasonably demand or expect that it vote for the Enabling Act proposed here. The elections of
March 5 have given the governing parties the majority and thus the possibility of governing in
strict adherence to the words and meaning of the constitution. Where such a possibility exists,
there is also an obligation to take it. Criticism is salutary and necessary. Never before, since
there has been a German Reichstag, has the control of public affairs by the elected
representatives of the people been eliminated to such an extent as is happening now, and is
supposed to happen even more through the new Enabling Act. Such omnipotence of the
government must have all the more serious repercussions inasmuch as the press, too, lacks
any freedom of expression.
...
The gentlemen of the National Socialist party call the movement they have unleashed a national
revolution, not a National Socialist one. So far, the relationship of their revolution to socialism
has been limited to the attempt to destroy the social democratic movement, which for more than
two generations has been the bearer of socialist ideas and will remain so. If the gentlemen of
the National Socialist Party wanted to perform socialist acts, they would not need an Enabling
Law.

 

[cerebus]

Give us a timestamp then so we can check it out without the "initial setup".

Dude, watch, don't watch, it really doesn't matter. I've already summarized the main point of the video in any case - mainly that attempting a civil debate with white nationalists is a self-defeating exercise because neo-nazis don't abide honestly by the rules of discourse and only seek to undermine counterpoints by any means at their disposal. You end up being forced down rabbit trails of pedantry, sophistry and irrelevant tangents, and ultimately you lose the debate simply because no points are ever conceded to.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

because neo-nazis don't abide honestly by the rules of discourse and only seek to undermine counterpoints by any means at their disposal. You end up being forced down rabbit trails of pedantry, sophistry and irrelevant tangents, and ultimately you lose the debate simply because no points are ever conceded to.

and you take these points as verifiable fact from a random youtuber without any proof?
perhaps more importantly, you reckon the "other side" doesn't employ the same tactics making debate with either side equally futile?

 

[cerebus]

and you take these points as verifiable fact from a random youtuber without any proof?

I'm so glad you watched the video so you understand that it's not pointing out 'verifiable facts', it's just illustrating how these debates tend to go. I have plenty of my own experience to validate the video.

perhaps more importantly, you reckon the "other side" doesn't employ the same tactics making debate with either side equally futile?

Maybe it does, I'm certain that the right would argue that it does. All of which leads back ineluctably to the original point I made...

As much as this is an admirable initiative, I fear it's preaching to the converted and some of the problems of modern US politics are simply intractable. How can you have a civil debate with a white supremacist, or someone who engages in bad-faith debate tactics and gaslighting?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Hitler made it clear, if the Marxist view (Under which he subsumed all socialist and left wing ideologies) was not "eradicated", Germany would not rise again. Hitler made it clear that he viewed the Weimar Republic as Marxist. Read his speech on the Enabling Act and it is clear what his views and ideologies are.

Those aren't mutually exclusive on the left/right paradigm. Marxists are extreme leftists, as are socialists, hell any ideology that espouses increased government control in the name of helping "the people" is inherently revolutionary and therefor leftist. They can also both be described as right-wing if they've become the status quo and hence the domain of the local brand of conservatives.

Given the historical examples of marxism and socialism tend to always stem from revolution it is accurate to classify those murderous and disastrous ideologies as more left than right though. For more on that view:
https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/e.htm

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

it's just illustrating how these debates tend to go. I have plenty of my own experience to validate the video

now imagine being in the middle and trying to explain the obvious truth to left and right: that they're both wrong ...

 

[cerebus]

now imagine being in the middle and trying to explain the obvious truth to left and right: that they're both wrong ...

Oh, positioning themselves as centrists is a prime tactic of the far right. And bear in mind that we're not talking about left vs right here, I was actually talking about white nationalists. There is no 'both wrong' argument to be made unless you're 45.