Voting?

[LazyLion]

I suspect my post got completely misinterpreted, oh well.

And you didn't even actually use the "K" word.

When people see that word their brains go into seizure and become one track commentators.

 

[Sherbang]

No you can't. That would be utterly stupid and completely illogical.
I was using the system for one goal, to put MY party in power.
I was not using it to put anybody else in power, that was never my goal or intention, and the fact remains that I do not want them in power.
So how does that legitimise the system? You are just trying to play loose and fast with words and semantics here, and completely failing at it.

I don't know if you're really this dense or just pretending to not understand.
You are using the system to put your party in power. By using the system you are agreeing to the rules of the 'game'.
By agreeing to the rules you are legitimising the winner. You say that you do not want anyone else but you chosen person in power, then why partake in a process that puts someone else in power?

Once again, Imagine if I knocked on your door one day and told you we (some of your neighbours) have decided our street needs a king and we're going to elect a king, these are the candidates, so please come vote for who you prefer. The king, once voted in will collect a weekly tax and will have wide ranging powers over the people living in the street. By voting, you agree that the winner is the legitimate king and will abide by his rules.
Being the sensible person you are you tell the person to fck off, you don't want or need a king, go away - you will either agree to take part in the election, in which case you're legitimising the winner by agreeing to the process of electing him/her or you will refuse to take part in the election and will refuse to recognise the results - choosing not to legitimise the process.
After the king is elected, his men come to your door to collect taxes.
Tell me, who has the right to complain? The person who voted for the other guy or you, who didn't vote at all?
You can complain, you can say you didn't vote for the king, you're not interested in a king, go away.
The other guy can complain that his guy didn't win but since he voted, he can't complain about paying taxes to the guy who did win - he took part in electing him after all...

 

[ponder]

I don't know if you're really this dense or just pretending to not understand.
You are using the system to put your party in power. By using the system you are agreeing to the rules of the 'game'.
By agreeing to the rules you are legitimising the winner. You say that you do not want anyone else but you chosen person in power, then why partake in a process that puts someone else in power?

Once again, Imagine if I knocked on your door one day and told you we (some of your neighbours) have decided our street needs a king and we're going to elect a king, these are the candidates, so please come vote for who you prefer. The king, once voted in will collect a weekly tax and will have wide ranging powers over the people living in the street. By voting, you agree that the winner is the legitimate king and will abide by his rules.
Being the sensible person you are you tell the person to fck off, you don't want or need a king, go away - you will either agree to take part in the election, in which case you're legitimising the winner by agreeing to the process of electing him/her or you will refuse to take part in the election and will refuse to recognise the results - choosing not to legitimise the process.
After the king is elected, his men come to your door to collect taxes.
Tell me, who has the right to complain? The person who voted for the other guy or you, who didn't vote at all?
You can complain, you can say you didn't vote for the king, you're not interested in a king, go away.
The other guy can complain that his guy didn't win but since he voted, he can't complain about paying taxes to the guy who did win - he took part in electing him after all...

Thing is this is the system we have in place at the moment so you try and make the best of it.

 

[LazyLion]

I don't know if you're really this dense or just pretending to not understand.
You are using the system to put your party in power. By using the system you are agreeing to the rules of the 'game'.
By agreeing to the rules you are legitimising the winner. You say that you do not want anyone else but you chosen person in power, then why partake in a process that puts someone else in power?

Once again, Imagine if I knocked on your door one day and told you we (some of your neighbours) have decided our street needs a king and we're going to elect a king, these are the candidates, so please come vote for who you prefer. The king, once voted in will collect a weekly tax and will have wide ranging powers over the people living in the street. By voting, you agree that the winner is the legitimate king and will abide by his rules.
Being the sensible person you are you tell the person to fck off, you don't want or need a king, go away - you will either agree to take part in the election, in which case you're legitimising the winner by agreeing to the process of electing him/her or you will refuse to take part in the election and will refuse to recognise the results - choosing not to legitimise the process.
After the king is elected, his men come to your door to collect taxes.
Tell me, who has the right to complain? The person who voted for the other guy or you, who didn't vote at all?
You can complain, you can say you didn't vote for the king, you're not interested in a king, go away.
The other guy can complain that his guy didn't win but since he voted, he can't complain about paying taxes to the guy who did win - he took part in electing him after all...

I don't know if you're really this dense or just pretending to not understand.
You are a citizen of South Africa, you were born here. You are part of this system whether you like it or not.
By saying, but I didn't vote for you, means sweet blow all to the legitimate government.
They will still expect you to pay your taxes and toe the line, which I assume you do regularly.
Your nice little pointless story about a king on the street is just a waste of cyber type.
That's why I used the analogy of breathing. We all do it, and we all don't have a choice in the matter.
What you choose to do with your breath though is another matter, hopefully you will use it for good.
But breathing is forced on all of us... we don't have a choice in the matter. Just like you don't have a choice in being a citizen.
You may think that your choice NOT TO VOTE frees you from responsibility, but it doesn't... you are just as much guilty by not voting for the ANC as those who directly voted for them.

Only the person who explicitly chose someone else cannot be blamed for the ANC coming into power.
We exercised our choice, and we chose against them.
Now you can go on bleating about legitimising the government all you want, it will accomplish the same thing if you stick your head in a fish tank and have a nice convo with the fish.
The simple fact at the end of the day is not whether it is legitimate or not, but did you make an effort to change it for the better.
I did, you didn't. There it is.

 

[Sherbang]

Edit: I'm also not sure that a party can remove members from parliament. Show me some proof of this. If it is true, then yes that is a concern that needs fixing.

You've never heard of Thabo Mbeki?
Never heard of a cabinet shuffle, mp's going out, being 'redeployed', new mp's coming in.

Take Mazibuko, for example, she decided to stand for public office in 2008 and was elected to Parliament in 2009, where she became DA’s National Spokesperson and Shadow Deputy Minister for Communications. In 2010 she became the Shadow Minister for Rural Development and Land Reform. In October 2011, Ms Mazibuko was elected by the DA’s Parliamentary caucus as their Parliamentary Leader and Leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly. Over 4 years she changed roles 3 times.

 

[Sherbang]

I don't know if you're really this dense or just pretending to not understand.
You are a citizen of South Africa, you were born here. You are part of this system whether you like it or not.
By saying, but I didn't vote for you, means sweet blow all to the legitimate government.
They will still expect you to pay your taxes and toe the line, which I assume you do regularly.
Your nice little pointless story about a king on the street is just a waste of cyber type.
That's why I used the analogy of breathing. We all do it, and we all don't have a choice in the matter.
What you choose to do with your breath though is another matter, hopefully you will use it for good.
But breathing is forced on all of us... we don't have a choice in the matter. Just like you don't have a choice in being a citizen.
You may think that your choice NOT TO VOTE frees you from responsibility, but it doesn't... you are just as much guilty by not voting for the ANC as those who directly voted for them.

Only the person who explicitly chose someone else cannot be blamed for the ANC coming into power.
We exercised our choice, and we chose against them.
Now you can go on bleating about legitimising the government all you want, it will accomplish the same thing if you stick your head in a fish tank and have a nice convo with the fish.
The simple fact at the end of the day is not whether it is legitimate or not, but did you make an effort to change it for the better.
I did, you didn't. There it is.

Ah yes, the just accept the way things are. If everyone had this attitude apartheid would never have been challenged. Everyone would just say. You are a citizen of South Africa, you were born here. You are part of this system whether you like it or not.
You say "By saying, but I didn't vote for you, means sweet blow all to the legitimate government." - but what makes the government legitimate? Only the fact that a majority voted in the election.
Once again, if the majority refused to vote as a form of protest it would throw the system into crises, nobody could claim to be a legitimate government and changes would need to be made. Or even better, if the majority spoiled their vote then the new government would be the spoiled vote party! I'm not going to be bullied into voting for a party whose policies I fundamentally disagree with and neither will I be bullied into voting for a party I know to be corrupt - I only hope more people will realise you do not have to vote just for the sake of voting - if there is a party that represents your interests by all means, vote for them, but if not, don't feel pressurised to vote just because it's the way things are and just accept it.

 

[LazyLion]

Ah yes, the just accept the way things are. If everyone had this attitude apartheid would never have been challenged. Everyone would just say. You are a citizen of South Africa, you were born here. You are part of this system whether you like it or not.

You are the one just leaving things the way they were. You are fully guilty of that. How ironic is that. What would you have done... not voted because nobody represented you... and apartheid would have continued.

You say "By saying, but I didn't vote for you, means sweet blow all to the legitimate government." - but what makes the government legitimate? Only the fact that a majority voted in the election.

It is no more, and no less legitimate without you. Your decision not to vote does not affect it's legitimacy in any way.
but again, IT IS A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT, and it is a government to which your are subject WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
If you do not want to live under this legitimate government, your only other option is to leave.

Once again, if the majority refused to vote as a form of protest it would throw the system into crises, nobody could claim to be a legitimate government and changes would need to be made. Or even better, if the majority spoiled their vote then the new government would be the spoiled vote party! I'm not going to be bullied into voting for a party whose policies I fundamentally disagree with and neither will I be bullied into voting for a party I know to be corrupt - I only hope more people will realise you do not have to vote just for the sake of voting - if there is a party that represents your interests by all means, vote for them, but if not, don't feel pressurised to vote just because it's the way things are and just accept it.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen.... so you might as well give up on that pipe dream.

 

[Garson007]

You've never heard of Thabo Mbeki?
Never heard of a cabinet shuffle, mp's going out, being 'redeployed', new mp's coming in.

Take Mazibuko, for example, she decided to stand for public office in 2008 and was elected to Parliament in 2009, where she became DA’s National Spokesperson and Shadow Deputy Minister for Communications. In 2010 she became the Shadow Minister for Rural Development and Land Reform. In October 2011, Ms Mazibuko was elected by the DA’s Parliamentary caucus as their Parliamentary Leader and Leader of the Opposition in the National Assembly. Over 4 years she changed roles 3 times.

None of those were kicking an MP out of parliament, by the party, in between elections. Got ****-all to do with the cabinet. The fact that you don't know the difference between the national assembly and government is exactly why this topic exists in the first place. People do not understand how the political system works.

 

[Sherbang]

You are the one just leaving things the way they were. You are fully guilty of that. How ironic is that. What would you have done... not voted because nobody represented you... and apartheid would have continued.
.

Apartheid wasn't destroyed by people voting. :wtf:

It is no more, and no less legitimate without you. Your decision not to vote does not affect it's legitimacy in any way.
but again, IT IS A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT, and it is a government to which your are subject WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!
If you do not want to live under this legitimate government, your only other option is to leave.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen.... so you might as well give up on that pipe dream.

It's a valid form of protest.

A high turnout is generally seen as evidence of the legitimacy of the current system. Dictators have often fabricated high turnouts in showcase elections for this purpose. For instance, Saddam Hussein's 2002 referendum was claimed to have had 100% participation.[16] Opposition parties sometimes boycott votes they feel are unfair or illegitimate, or if the election is for a government that is considered illegitimate. For example, the Holy See instructed Italian Catholics to boycott national elections for several decades after the creation of the State of Italy.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout

The validity of the election may be questioned if there is an unusually high proportion of spoilt votes. However, in countries such as the UK where spoilt ballots are counted, some voters will deliberately spoil their ballot paper to show disapproval of the candidates available whilst still taking part in the electoral process. This may include signing or printing the voter's name on the ballot slip. Evidence points that this practice dates back to times when electoral wards were assigned a designated scīrgerefa (Old English) or "sheriff" a royal official responsible for keeping the peace throughout

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoilt_vote

A protest vote (also known as a blank vote or white vote) is a vote cast in an election to demonstrate the caster's dissatisfaction with the choice of candidates or refusal of the current political system. In this latter case, protest vote may take the form of a valid vote, but instead of voting for the mainstream candidates, it is a vote in favor of a minority or fringe candidate, either from the far-left, far-right or self-presenting as a candidate foreign to the political system.

Along with abstention, which is simply the act of not voting, it is often considered to be a clear sign of the lack of popular legitimacy and roots of representative democracy, as depressed voter turnout endangers the credibility of the whole voting system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_vote

 

[LazyLion]

Apartheid wasn't destroyed by people voting. :wtf:

Apartheid wasn't destroyed, it was dismantled. And it's end certainly had nothing to do with you. You were completely irrelevant in the equation... and you remain irrelevant.
You have and will accomplish absolutely nothing.

It's a valid form of protest.

Whatever floats your boat... it's still not going to accomplish one damn thing.
If you want to actually accomplish something go out and vote.

 

[Sherbang]

None of those were kicking an MP out of parliament, by the party, in between elections. Got ****-all to do with the cabinet. The fact that you don't know the difference between the national assembly and government is exactly why this topic exists in the first place. People do not understand how the political system works.

Mbeki was recalled by the party in between elections.

Pierre De Vos (Claude Leon Foundation Chair in Constitutional Governance at the University of Cape Town) makes the same point here:

That is the way our system operates. This system is made worse by the fact that the way in which our Electoral Law is interpreted means that members of a political party can be redeployed to and from Parliament as the list of potential MP’s can be changed at various times during the life of the Parliament. Somebody can therefore be shifted from the Western Cape Provincial Parliament to the National Assembly and vice versa without too much trouble. This means that members of Parliament live in fear of their bosses. If you happen to be in the majority party (either nationally or in the provinces) those bosses are the very people you are constitutionally required to hold to account.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/2012/03/18/

and here:

Both the ANC and the DA remove members from Parliament for various reasons or shift them around from one legislature to the other to promote or demote them. Not that ordinary voters would notice this, because we have no clue who represents us in Parliament. This is because MP’s first and foremost represent their political parties, instead of geographically defined constituencies, and can afford to ignore the voters in the area to which their parties assign them.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/how-can-we-solve-problems-with-our-electoral-system/

 

[RVQ]

It's a valid form of protest.

LMAO! Politicians all over the world must be having sleepless nights because of your protest

 

[Sherbang]

Apartheid wasn't destroyed, it was dismantled. And it's end certainly had nothing to do with you. You were completely irrelevant in the equation... and you remain irrelevant.
You have and will accomplish absolutely nothing.

Actually you don't know anything about me, what I did or did not do, what I have or have not accomplished in my life.

Whatever floats your boat... it's still not going to accomplish one damn thing.
If you want to actually accomplish something go out and vote.

What's that going to accomplish - another legitimate ANC government... Kay...

 

[Sherbang]

LMAO! Politicians all over the world must be having sleepless nights because of your protest

Well it's better than than losing all integrity by voting for a party I don't actually want to see in government.

 

[Garson007]

Mbeki was recalled by the party in between elections.

Mbeki wasn't an MP. He was the President. Big difference. Again, government and national assembly is not the same thing.

Pierre De Vos (Claude Leon Foundation Chair in Constitutional Governance at the University of Cape Town) makes the same point here:

Thanks, finally some relevant information. I agree that this shouldn't be possible after the formation of parliament, unless the member consented to it.

Edit: Again, I might argue it's a case of intra-party politics that's gone wrong. Although constitutional enforcement should really be taking place. I also still need a case of where this has actually happened, where a member of parliament was expelled and replaced.

 

[LazyLion]

Actually you don't know anything about me, what I did or did not do, what I have or have not accomplished in my life.

I know you didn't vote, and that pretty much defines you. It tells me all I need to know about you.

What's that going to accomplish - another legitimate ANC government... Kay...

Maybe, but you will also be in exactly the same boat as you were before. Making zero impact on life.
Some people are steam ships and some are just flotsam on the water.

 

[LazyLion]

Well it's better than than losing all integrity by voting for a party I don't actually want to see in government.

Don't worry, you don't have any to lose!

 

[Sherbang]

I know you didn't vote, and that pretty much defines you. It tells me all I need to know about you.

Wow ok. I didn't vote during apartheid so that defines me and tells you everything you need to know about me. cool...
Which is what? I was too young to vote? Wrong colour to vote? Conscientious objector? in exile? What exactly does it tell you about me garyvdh?

 

[LazyLion]

Wow ok. I didn't vote during apartheid so that defines me and tells you everything you need to know about me. cool...
Which is what? I was too young to vote? Wrong colour to vote? Conscientious objector? in exile? What exactly does it tell you about me garyvdh?

I didn't say I know everything about you. I said I know enough about you.
The fact that you don't vote gives me a certain perspective on what type of person you are.
And that's pretty much all I want to know about you.

 

[RVQ]

Well it's better than than losing all integrity by voting for a party I don't actually want to see in government.

You can say that one may loose some integrity for making a small attempt to unseat a clearly corrupt party by voting for another one but you have sold your soul for doing absolutely nothing and ensuring this corrupt party stay in power... good job sticking it to the Man!