Web Africa ADSL general feedback

[Zewp]

The thing is, we have advised our customers that are on our Uncapped service that you need to stay within your thresholds as per your package and if you have gone over the threshold, just slow down your usage so that you fall below the threshold.

In other words, you basically tell them how much they are allowed to use?

How are you getting away with calling this uncapped? You just blatantly admitted that it's not uncapped.

 

[froot]

In other words, you basically tell them how much they are allowed to use?

How are you getting away with calling this uncapped? You just blatantly admitted that it's not uncapped.

It's the first question we asked them (months ago) and they still haven't come up with an acceptable [-]excuse[/-] answer :/

 

[Kwerty]

What happened to only getting shaped if you go over your rolling window AND the network doesn't have enough capacity? I'm pretty sure that's what WA was punting when uncapped was just released.

 

[Fulton17]

What happened to only getting shaped if you go over your rolling window AND the network doesn't have enough capacity? I'm pretty sure that's what WA was punting when uncapped was just released.

http://kb.webafrica.co.za/article/A...ity/ADSL/Home-Uncapped-QA.html#Rolling Window

"REMEMBER, this ONLY occurs when we do not have available capacity on our network."

Yep, that is why I am saying that it would appear they have serious issues. I base this on their own website. At times I really do think WA is their own worst enemy

 

[bullfrog]

I came, I saw, I lolled

Glad I left.

 

[Zewp]

Yep, that is why I am saying that it would appear they have serious issues. I base this on their own website. At times I really do think WA is their own worst enemy

And when you point it out to the reps here, they deny it.

WebAfrica, your ISP of choice... if you don't mind being misled and lied to.

 

[Incognito64]

What happened to only getting shaped if you go over your rolling window AND the network doesn't have enough capacity? I'm pretty sure that's what WA was punting when uncapped was just released.

Nobody knows...but it's still in their Kan't Beaccurate article
"If you use more than a certain amount of Gigs in a 7 day period, then your service will be moved to a lower priority until that 7 day period is up. Your ADSL account will then be restored to normal priority"

So what happens if you don't get warnings (or in most cases ignore them)? The system auto disables your account. This is something I think people should know.

Also note these warnings are for going over the 14GB threshold a number of times, not your total usage. At a guess there is no customer specification for how much over is a problem (e.g. is +100mb a strike? or +1GB) nor is there a given number of 'strikes' till your service is out.

One has to wonder if the documentation regarding this service is accountable to anyone if it doesn't match the maintenance of the service?

"Even if your service is switched to a lower priority, browsing remains awesome."

Not if your service is disabled?

 

[WAJeff]

Hi all,

I'm only posting up here once, Justin asked me to jump on - I'm on leave until Thursday, so he'll be taking things back over. Just here because we have the history of the issues brought up and have been discussed ad nauseam.
If I miss anything, I'll post it up on Thursday or have Justin answer - I'm addressing the common points in this thread (even though Uncapped should really be discussed in the Uncapped Feedback Thread, but anyway)

Is WA's Uncapped really Uncapped?
Yes. Remember, expecting a true Uncapped experience in SA is few and far between - looking at the UK/ overseas markets. We cannot simply allow free reign over the accounts and allow everyone to download the internet every night. This is where the AUP and rolling windows come in.

Remember, these have also been recently increased along with a rough 8% network capacity increase - so the experience is looking better. Every ISP in SA offering Uncapped has an AUP, and we still stand out as the ISP with the most transparent, easy to read document that we're straight up about. From the start the AUP hasn't changed, keeping in mind the following points:

Web Africa may undertake the following action(s) against excessive usage:

• Adjusting the throughput of the aforementioned service if the account exceeds the 7 day limits.

• Limiting or preventing service through specific Protocols and/or Ports if the account exceeds the 7 day limits.

• Termination of the service due to continuous excessive usage.

• Any attempt to bypass Shaping Policies may result in termination of the Uncapped ADSL account.

Again, very similar to other ISP's AUP's out there.
Also noted that Uncapped is still fairly new to WA, so we are constantly looking at new improvements and features. From launch we've already made a couple changes and will continue to do so.

Why do you have rolling windows?
This is our way of applying QoS to allow the best possible internet experience for every user across the board. This isn't very restrictive at all in terms of the 7 day thresholds either, especially considering we recently removed the 6 hour rolling window. You can use 90% of this threshold on day 1 and the other 10% over the following 6 days - however you feel most useful.

As of late we also haven't been running anywhere near our network capacity, so even after you reach your 7 day threshold you won't be slowed down. I've personally tested this on a 4Mbps Uncapped account going download crazy, reached the threshold after 4 days of constant downloading and didn't see any speed decrease.

Why do I receive emails about my usage?
Simply put, to give you a heads-up about the usage. These emails work other 3 sends.
The first to say you've reached the threshold, please use less (while not necessarily slowing you down)
The second to point to the AUP and the other legal terms you agree upon when signing up.
The third as a warning where we may terminate the account should the excessive usage continue. Remember my example above of downloading - I wasn't slowed down once and used almost 100GB's over 8 days or so.

Again, this is something that was agreed upon during the sign-up process and was made clearly available. We're not hiding this information anywhere and throwing it back in everyones faces, which feels like is happening here.

What constitutes abuse?
Partly discussed above. I'm aware that there are abuse limitations on the account which are all fairly high, just not 100% sure on the actual numbers. I've asked Justin to follow up on this and get some info for you guys.
In all honesty though, the current 7 day rolling windows are fair and if downloads are run intelligently (ie between Download Plus hours) a lot of usage can come from these accounts.

I know of issues around the difference between 384 and 1Mb accounts - I'll see if we can twist some arms and have the 1Mbps accounts increased a little. No promises here, but we'll see what we can do.

Simply put, if you feel that the 7 day rolling window isn't enough to fit your internet needs why not look at upgrading?
Hope this clears a few things up. Justin will be looking at things for today/ tomorrow - I'm back at the office on Thursday.

 

[Zewp]

The problem is, Jeff, that nobody has an issue wit AUPs or shaping. We have a problem with actively being told how much we are allowed to use, which is basically what termination of a service or abuse letters amount to. That's not uncapped.

WA is using loopholes and technicalities to get away with calling a service with severe usage limitations an uncapped service.

Also, once again, why do you have rolling windows if you send out abuse emails anyway? Rolling windows are supposed to be a security measure put in place to ensure people don't use too much bandwidth. If it is necessary for you to send out abuse emails even with a security measure in place, it means that your security measures aren't working as they should. Isn't this grounds for checking the security measures or even removing them entirely?

 

[Incognito64]

I get the feeling that its odd to have such harsh methods if the network is not suffering. Not that people should be doing what Jeff demonstrated is possible.

Rolling windows seem to have no scale in terms of penalty 1gb over 14gb is potentially as bad as 20gb over 71gb. I think there needs a better sense of scale and for people over to actually be throttled instead of letters and cut offs, no one likes micro management. Either make 4mb rolling window 56gb or 1Mb 17gb with a 50% penalty in speed if over. Easy to explain and easy to state, there are of course many design options available. At the end of the day my emphasis is that the system should scale better. Also download plus utilization should come into consideration when issuing complaints about excessive usage, although it is completely fair to advise them to use download plus more.

Just as information I am staying with web africa, the service and value of the 1Mb package is decent and suits my needs and well an accident on sign up happened which meant no warnings were received.

As an aside BT in England run uncapped where you have a 100gb per month limit and are alerted at 80gb, I don't think iplayer counts to this limit though. Other uncapped services there are better certainly but it makes you realise webafrica isn't bad but it could be a lot better.

 

[Webafrica Helper]

We can definitely understand what you guys are saying that no one likes the email notifications but it is something we have to do as we have agreed to inform our clients if they are close or exceeding their thresholds, again as per Jeff's reply.

One thing I can say is that these notifications have been sent to a very small amount of our Uncapped customers because the majority are within their thresholds. Like Jeff mentioned there are ways to best use the Uncapped service i.e: download plus which will allow you to get quite a lot out of the account and If you know that you need more then you can just upgrade.

 

[kissingmybbgoodbye]

I am soooooo glad i am not with WA anymore goodluck to the poor fellows still with them who now compalin about their uncapped accounts wonder when WA is going to get it right again

 

[grim]

Quite the contrary Fulton17, we have increased our network capacity quite considerably over the last couple of months and are not running near full capacity. The reason behind this is that we have a small amount of customers continually exceeded their CAPS and this in my opinion is unfair as it is impacting the majority of our Uncapped users which are well within their limits.

We have notified these customers about their usage exceeding the CAP but they decided not to slow it down. We even give these customers a call to warn them and all they need to do is stick within the CAP. These customers also have a choice of upgrading their service to a bigger package since they will using such a high amount of bandwidth.

So we have done all that we can do from our end but we need our customers to work with us as well.

There. Fixed it.

 

[MFour]

Is WA's Uncapped really Uncapped?
Yes. Remember, expecting a true Uncapped experience in SA is few and far between - looking at the UK/ overseas markets. We cannot simply allow free reign over the accounts and allow everyone to download the internet every night.

I think you/WA need to be congratulated for that statement Jeff. From my experience most ISPs with "uncapped" offerings go through great lengths not to come out and say it like it is. The question is more often than not simply dodged and and a "we don't limit you" statement is thrown at any question that is asked to that effect, when we all know that it is not necessarily the truth. So well done for saying it as it is, can't be said in more simple terms.

 

[Fulton17]

I think you/WA need to be congratulated for that statement Jeff. From my experience most ISPs with "uncapped" offerings go through great lengths not to come out and say it like it is. The question is more often than not simply dodged and and a "we don't limit you" statement is thrown at any question that is asked to that effect, when we all know that it is not necessarily the truth. So well done for saying it as it is, can't be said in more simple terms.

I am a bit confused. WA say they are really uncapped when they have rolling windows in place and when you go over these windows various things might happen. I would have thought an honest / accurate answer would be more along the lines of a qualified yes or semi uncapped.
You have to manage your account, and that tells me straight away it is far from a true uncapped account.

 

[nogard]

I came, I saw, I lolled

Glad I left.

Me too. Meaning glad that you (and other heavy downloaders) left. Leaves a better network for me to use

WA is using loopholes and technicalities to get away with calling a service with severe usage limitations an uncapped service.

My downloads runs about 24/7. During the day it runs slower to keep within my 7 day limit, but when the clock strikes midnight they go to full speed for 6 hours - as this time does not count towards your 7 day limit. By using this 6 hour window optimally I get way more than my limit would suggest.

I still download faster than I am able to watch.

And my WA line only goes down when telkom ghardware fails or the SAT3 cable breaks.

I am very happy with the limitations WA put on usage. Keeps my line as fast as what I pay for (within the limits we have in ZA).

 

[MFour]

I am a bit confused. WA say they are really uncapped when they have rolling windows in place and when you go over these windows various things might happen. I would have thought an honest / accurate answer would be more along the lines of a qualified yes or semi uncapped.
You have to manage your account, and that tells me straight away it is far from a true uncapped account.

I hear what you are saying and struggled for a long time with the exact same argument. The truth is however that we do not have true uncapped (excluding the business accounts) in SA, never have, and probably never will. Something we have to accept (in spite of many complaints) is that definition of uncapped in SA is something unique and not really related to the true meaning of the word, uncapped. I've not read through any of WA's promo material, so no idea what it sells it as, but I am commending Jeff on acknowledging the fact that it is not a true uncapped product.

So if you can make piece with the fact that we do not have true uncapped internet access in SA, regardless of the promo bumf, it is (for me anyway) quite refreshing to have an ISP rep come out and call a spade a spade.

 

[Necuno]

I hear what you are saying and struggled for a long time with the exact same argument. The truth is however that we do not have true uncapped (excluding the business accounts) in SA, never have, and probably never will. Something we have to accept (in spite of many complaints) is that definition of uncapped in SA is something unique and not really related to the true meaning of the word, uncapped. I've not read through any of WA's promo material, so no idea what it sells it as, but I am commending Jeff on acknowledging the fact that it is not a true uncapped product.

So if you can make piece with the fact that we do not have true uncapped internet access in SA, regardless of the promo bumf, it is (for me anyway) quite refreshing to have an ISP rep come out and call a spade a spade.

It is one thing to make peace and another thing to just throw logic at the wind.

If the rolling window was such a good thing why isn't all the isps using it? How can openweb or mweb then do without it, and quite a good job too. WA's bandwith allocation is broken and that doesn't make a good combination with rolling windows. Further more they are quick to say one thing and do another thing like for example saying that download as much as you want, rolling will take care of it. However then they bully you to cancellation or paying more. Well played.

No one here is demanding a constant stream TBs a month. We just want to use the line when we want to use it without having the laksman over your shoulder. Who really wants to be made to wait till odd hours to get that game, music, video, update etc etc. I'd wager that the home product isn't very good option if you are 4 people in the house that are not IT handicapped.

 

[MFour]

It is one thing to make peace and another thing to just throw logic at the wind.

If the rolling window was such a good thing why isn't all the isps using it? How can openweb or mweb then do without it, and quite a good job too. WA's bandwith allocation is broken and that doesn't make a good combination with rolling windows. Further more they are quick to say one thing and do another thing like for example saying that download as much as you want, rolling will take care of it. However then they bully you to cancellation or paying more. Well played.

No one here is demanding a constant stream TBs a month. We just want to use the line when we want to use it without having the laksman over your shoulder. Who really wants to be made to wait till odd hours to get that game, music, video, update etc etc. I'd wager that the home product isn't very good option if you are 4 people in the house that are not IT handicapped.

Look I'm not arguing with any of you, in fact I agree with what you are saying. I have used MWEB in the past and for my usage it was pretty hopeless, where for others it worked great. I do not have an uncapped account because I find it too restrictive, I don't care much for rollings windows, shaping rules, and the like. No matter which ISP, they all have the same thing going, in different forms maybe, one might be more usable than the other depending on how you want to use it, but the fact remains none of them are truly uncapped accounts, not in my view anyway. As much as i would love to have one, the only way to have it atm is to start selling organs to finance it, clearly not an option for most, i.e. business uncapped.

All I'm saying is that maybe people are expecting too much from a SA based "uncapped" account. As Jeff said: "Remember, expecting a true Uncapped experience in SA is few and far between". I have not heard MWEB, or any of the others make such a statement (maybe they have, I don't know). Obviously there are some issues experienced by users, and it might or might not improve in time, but for some it works great, for other's not. To find the right one for your taste you will have to swop and chop from ISP to ISP until you find happiness. If WA does not work for you then it does not, move on.

For the foreseeable future I'll stick to my RedAfrica account which does exactly what I want it to (although more GB's would be nice). It runs flawlessly 24/7 at the moment, for what I need it for, it might not be the same for someone else. More cap would be a bargain, but it does not exist, so I have made piece with the way things are. Throwing logic to the wind? Well maybe, depends on your point of view.

PS: yes I'm bored at work with too much time on my hands today

 

[Necuno]

I got that after I typed it out

Look I'm not arguing with any of you, in fact I agree with what you are saying. I have used MWEB in the past and for my usage it was pretty hopeless, where for others it worked great. I do not have an uncapped account because I find it too restrictive, I don't care much for rollings windows, shaping rules, and the like. No matter which ISP, they all have the same thing going, in different forms maybe, one might be more usable than the other depending on how you want to use it, but the fact remains none of them are truly uncapped accounts, not in my view anyway. As much as i would love to have one, the only way to have it atm is to start selling organs to finance it, clearly not an option for most, i.e. business uncapped.

All I'm saying is that maybe people are expecting too much from a SA based "uncapped" account. As Jeff said: "Remember, expecting a true Uncapped experience in SA is few and far between". I have not heard MWEB, or any of the others make such a statement (maybe they have, I don't know). Obviously there are some issues experienced by users, and it might or might not improve in time, but for some it works great, for other's not. To find the right one for your taste you will have to swop and chop from ISP to ISP until you find happiness. If WA does not work for you then it does not, move on.

For the foreseeable future I'll stick to my RedAfrica account which does exactly what I want it to (although more GB's would be nice). It runs flawlessly 24/7 at the moment, for what I need it for, it might not be the same for someone else. More cap would be a bargain, but it does not exist, so I have made piece with the way things are. Throwing logic to the wind? Well maybe, depends on your point of view.

PS: yes I'm bored at work with too much time on my hands today