Whats wrong with who?

[Krypto]

Harsh topic, but not that harsh, more pricesly it should have neen Whats wrong with South Africans???

I'm puzzled about white South Africans, more especially the younger generations(1980~~), they seem to be out of touch with South Africa, they are quick to critisize the Goverment and all its initiatives. and hardly defend South Africa.

As a Black Man, and citizen of South Africa
I'm sick of crime, more needs to be done.

I'm tired of all the ques that I have to go trough at all goverment institutions...

I'm sick with lack of accountability by the goverment officials...

I'm sick with redtapes of business finance
But despite all this, I have high hopes for the future of South Africa...
I cannot wait for the day when I have my first car and house
BACK TO THE TOPIC...
A lot of whites do not know much about South African politics. I have two white friends whom emigrated from Ireland and England in 1994 to reside in South Africa, and their knowledge of South African politics is above average, it even lead to me questioning my patriotism. I was having a chat with one of them and my white collegue, and we soon drifted to politics and you can see that collegue was lost and uncomfortable...Whats up with that???

Both of my friends can make up sentences in native South Africa lunguages, and only have 14 years in the country, whereas white South Africans have been in the country for generations, yet the majority cannot speak native lunguages....Whats up with that???

Take note fo all the goverment related threats in this forum...Whats up with all the negativity???

NB!
I hate the usage of white and black to describe human beings, I don't feel comfortable using either words, and I apologise for any grivience that I might have caused

South Africa belongs to all who leave in it, and I believe that one day we will coexist happily and discard the skin colur classification.

First I think it was unfair that the thread on "What's wrong with whites???" was closed. So we can discuss anything from government, god & religion, JZ and even trivial things like what people are eating fo dinner but we have sacred cows where the unpatriotic attitudes of many south africans (mostly white) cannot be discussed?

The point IMO that News24 was making and h I share is that whilst we all have all been disappointed by the government(ANC) and individuals who take advantage of government's incompetence to achieve their selfish goals there a those who takes this to a whole new level.

There are people who now wish to see South Africa fail whether in hosting 2010, alleviating poverty, crime or any policies implemented by government, in general wishing to see SA fail at everything.

These people, whilst their frustrations are justified, rejoice at hearing of increasing crime rates, corrupt ministers, incompetent officials and failing policies because they can now smile and say 'You see, these blacks can't run the country". It would seem that this is more than just about government's incompetence, it's about people feeling that their long held white supremacy ideologies are being validated and the worse things get the better they feel (yes, i have no intentions of *****catting around).

My opinion is that whilst things in South Africa have taken a really bad turn there has been a great many improvements in all sectors including health, education, social welfare and especially human rights. One reason why some of you do not see this is because you are removed from it and your lives have not changed that much since 94 as they were nicer all along. But theres people who have benefited a lot from all the government policies that have so failed, BEE & AA may have not reached their targets and may have resulted in some people unduly getting positions to the detriment of most but if you open your eyes a little more you'll surprised how much it has done to improve the living conditions o PDI's in SA.

But my point was not to try and justify government's policies but to understand why some people, black and white, feel that nothing is going right in SA and more importantly seem to feel better when things go wrong.

Lets try and keep this civilised lest the mods decide to close this for whatever reason they closed the previous one.

 

[Zenbaas]

Lets try and keep this civilised lest the mods decide to close this for whatever reason they closed the previous one.

If you have read the whole thread and its still not blatantly obvious as to why it was closed then you already have a problem right there unfortunately.

 

[Krypto]

If you have read the whole thread and its still not blatantly obvious as to why it was closed then you already have a problem right there unfortunately.

I can agree that it had gotten out of hand but I'm hoping we can discuss this like adults, so we at least know other's perspectives.

 

[Kosmik]

But my point was not to try and justify government's policies but to understand why some people, black and white, feel that nothing is going right in SA and more importantly seem to feel better when things go wrong.

Crime is a HUUUUGE problem in this country. Our police force are paid chicken feed and asked to put their lives on the line. They are under-resourced while the big wigs have armoured mercs and private jets.

We have a person, who is likely to be the next president, undermining the entire judicial system.

We have health ministers who beleive in home cooked remedies and not science.

We have drunken judges who beleive it is their right to do whatever they feel like and anyone who doesn't agree are racists.

Shall I continue or is even that small list not enough to make a decent law-abiding citizen sick?


Oh, swing a cup of coffee with that biscuit please. Italian or Roma Expresso only.

 

[Zenbaas]

I can agree that it had gotten out of hand but I'm hoping we can discuss this like adults, so we at least know other's perspectives.

If its a proper decent discussion then there's no problem. But we have forumites from both sides(a certain nimrod comes to mind) that have no intention to post anything of value in a thread other than to derail it or troll in it.

 

[Krypto]

Shall I continue or is even that small list not enough to make a decent law-abiding citizen sick?

I am well aware of this and in my position probably feel the consequences more. The question remains, why would people want things to be worse, why do they feel better when things get worse?

 

[Kosmik]

I am well aware of this and in my position probably feel the consequences more. The question remains, why would people want things to be worse, why do they feel better when things get worse?

I certainly don't so I'm afraid I can't comment on that.

 

[Turiko]

If you have read the whole thread and its still not blatantly obvious as to why it was closed then you already have a problem right there unfortunately.

Yes and I am rather glad it's closed too. I for one have seen threads like these spin out of control far too often.

 

[Zenbaas]

I am well aware of this and in my position probably feel the consequences more. The question remains, why would people want things to be worse, why do they feel better when things get worse?

Thats not the case at all i believe. Although government has improved the lives of some, i think the original plan was to improve the lives of many. And although we have seen progress, we have also seen mass decline in certain areas of SA life.
The rampant corruption coupled with very high ranking officials being implicated in crime (think SAPS, JZ etc) leads to a feeling of negativity and helplessness. I don't think the vast majority of white south africans hope that the country fails, but the fact that a there's a moral decline in our society today is terribly worrying. There is also NO accountability from these said officials and there is thus no change forthcoming. So, where exactly does that leave us?
Coupled with being punished over and over by AA and BEE policies for something my "ancestors" did makes for a difficult life in SA today.

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

The 3 big areas I have a problem with is Health, Education and Crime ...... there's no way you can say they have improved. More people have access to Health and Education, yes but standards have fallen drastically. How is it fair that someone who was previously disadvantaged is basically still being disadvantaged because Government has let state hospitals degrade. Likewise with schooling ..... anyone looking outside SA with their new education is going to be laughed at and shunned because the standard is that low.

And let me not even get started on crime ....... I have yet to hear one person in real life (black or white or pink) say that crime is under more control now than in the past. Just my 2c.

 

[Krypto]

Thats not the case at all i believe. Although government has improved the lives of some, i think the original plan was to improve the lives of many. And although we have seen progress, we have also seen mass decline in certain areas of SA life.
The rampant corruption coupled with very high ranking officials being implicated in crime (think SAPS, JZ etc) leads to a feeling of negativity and helplessness. I don't think the vast majority of white south africans hope that the country fails, but the fact that a there's a moral decline in our society today is terribly worrying. There is also NO accountability from these said officials and there is thus no change forthcoming. So, where exactly does that leave us?
Coupled with being punished over and over by AA and BEE policies for something my "ancestors" did makes for a difficult life in SA today.

You may be right after all and it may just be a temporary moment of insanity but there is reason to believe that including http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=132370, i don't have a lot of time to look.

True there is no accountability from some officials and no "change on the horizon" still things like 2010 will help improve a lot of things but people still wish that could fail including the Gauteng, Economic growth, OBE etc. Would it not make things better if those things were to be successful. Its one thing to criticise your child's running with scissors but its another to hope he falls to prove you right.

 

[Krypto]

The 3 big areas I have a problem with is Health, Education and Crime ...... there's no way you can say they have improved. More people have access to Health and Education, yes but standards have fallen drastically. How is it fair that someone who was previously disadvantaged is basically still being disadvantaged because Government has let state hospitals degrade. Likewise with schooling ..... anyone looking outside SA with their new education is going to be laughed at and shunned because the standard is that low.

And let me not even get started on crime ....... I have yet to hear one person in real life (black or white or pink) say that crime is under more control now than in the past. Just my 2c.

There is considerable improvements in all those and whilst standards "have fallen" which standards are you comparing those to? It may seem to you they have fallen but to someone who lived in a shack, no electricity/running water/access to health care that "fallen standard" is an improvement. Same thing applies to education, I have a 16yr old sister and some of the things she's did in grade11 I only came across in tertiary. Include life, entrepreneural & organisational skills and I'm surprised how I made it.

But this thread is not about that so pls see my response to zenbaas.

 

[Zenbaas]

You may be right after all and it may just be a temporary moment of insanity but there is reason to believe that including http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=132370, i don't have a lot of time to look.

True there is no accountability from some officials and no "change on the horizon" still things like 2010 will help improve a lot of things but people still wish that could fail including the Gauteng, Economic growth, OBE etc. Would it not make things better if those things were to be successful. Its one thing to criticise your child's running with scissors but its another to hope he falls to prove you right.

Please go read that thread properly to see what its really about And that is probable one of the main problem SA faces today. Why must whites be blamed as a whole for some idiots ramblings and impressions on a certain subject? (aka Essop Pahad)
As for the rest. Of course we do not want a lot of the systems and events that are up and coming to fail. That would just be stupid. But a lot of people expect it to fail due to governments recent spate of inadequacies. We all hope its a giant success, but unfortunately we sort of know better. As for OBE etc., why would we want it to fail?
Where it is failing though is the fact that implementation is failing and they are massively underfunded and resourced. Unfortunately the standard of education has dropped but hopefully that can be remedied by pumping more money into they schooling system(and then spend it where its bloody meant to be spent).

I think some of the "want it to fail" dilemma comes into play where people want others to see that our current government is indeed incompetent in a vast amount of areas and the only way for the masses to realise this is by certain things failing..? I know it sounds "screwbally"...and it probably is but it relates directly to frustrations that the ANC thinks that it can do what it wants without any repercussions ever as the black vote will always be in their pockets.

 

[Zenbaas]

There is considerable improvements in all those and whilst standards "have fallen" which standards are you comparing those to? It may seem to you they have fallen but to someone who lived in a shack, no electricity/running water/access to health care that "fallen standard" is an improvement.

That logic is flawed unfortunately. Anyone taking over post apartheid could of achieved that. The fact that they now have access to all these things does not detract from the fact that the education/health/electricity etc. standard that they now have access to has fallen in standard. Whether they had access to it before does not reflect on the actual standard as it was before.

 

[Sly21C]

You know this racism thing and being intolerant to each other and if I may also mention war, homosexuality, etc is so old school, these types of topics and problems between humans should have been sorted out in the last century, this century should be a century of the environment, a century whereby environmental activists are taking on money making, greedy individuals who choose to destroy the environment for the sake or makinf a profit instead of preserving it.

I know i'm off topic but I get whenever people talk about racism, it is so old, narrow-minded and dumb.

 

[semiautomatix]

You know this racism thing and being intolerant to each other and if I may also mention war, homosexuality, etc is so old school, these types of topics and problems between humans should have been sorted out in the last century, this century should be a century of the environment, a century whereby environmental activists are taking on money making, greedy individuals who choose to destroy the environment for the sake or makinf a profit instead of preserving it.

I know i'm off topic but I get whenever people talk about racism, it is so old, narrow-minded and dumb.

One of many (possibly bigger) problems facing this entire planet. However, how can you expect people to work together for the sake of the environment if they can't even work together for the betterment of their fellow man?

 

[Krypto]

Please go read that thread properly to see what its really about And that is probable one of the main problem SA faces today. Why must whites be blamed as a whole for some idiots ramblings and impressions on a certain subject? (aka Essop Pahad)
As for the rest. Of course we do not want a lot of the systems and events that are up and coming to fail. That would just be stupid. But a lot of people expect it to fail due to governments recent spate of inadequacies. We all hope its a giant success, but unfortunately we sort of know better. As for OBE etc., why would we want it to fail?
Where it is failing though is the fact that implementation is failing and they are massively underfunded and resourced. Unfortunately the standard of education has dropped but hopefully that can be remedied by pumping more money into they schooling system(and then spend it where its bloody meant to be spent).

I think some of the "want it to fail" dilemma comes into play where people want others to see that our current government is indeed incompetent in a vast amount of areas and the only way for the masses to realise this is by certain things failing..? I know it sounds "screwbally"...and it probably is but it relates directly to frustrations that the ANC thinks that it can do what it wants without any repercussions ever as the black vote will always be in their pockets.

I have actually read that thread and its a matter of opinion as to the number of people preferring things go wrong than right. There is a clear difference between people expecting something to fail due feasibility, lack of funding/skills, proper action plan etc and people hoping something would fail because its instituted by the same government that is failing in other areas and it will prove that the government can't do anything right.

Your saying that some want things to fail so that the masses can finally get the point that the government is incompetent might make sense except that if the government is totally incompetent shouldn't it be failing enough for everyone to see that without people hoping it fails some more?

That logic is flawed unfortunately. Anyone taking over post apartheid could of achieved that. The fact that they now have access to all these things does not detract from the fact that the education/health/electricity etc. standard that they now have access to has fallen in standard. Whether they had access to it before does not reflect on the actual standard as it was before.

True anyone could have achieved that but one thing a lot of people seem to take for granted is that unlike the previous government the current one has to provide for everyone and not a small manority which means the resources are stretched and those resources are limited in terms of funds, skills, policies, committment etc in the first place. This is not to say the government couldn't be doing more but to say there are considerable impediments to progress and one should always take that into consideration lest they come across as being narrow minded and taking for granted valid points just because they don't fit their view.

 

[semiautomatix]

True anyone could have achieved that but one thing a lot of people seem to take for granted is that unlike the previous government the current one has to provide for everyone and not a small manority which means the resources are stretched and that those resources are limited in terms of funds, skills, policies, committment etc. This is not to say the government couldn't be doing more but to say there are considerable impediments to progress and one should always take that into consideration lest they come across as being narrow minded and taking for granted valid points just because they don't fit their view.

Yes, but you fail to understand the relativity. More people in turn means more tax revenues, an increased budget, an increased public workforce. Its all a matter of scale. Many countries, much larger than South Africa, are able to achieve decent public infrastructure.

 

[Kosmik]

That logic is flawed unfortunately. Anyone taking over post apartheid could of achieved that. The fact that they now have access to all these things does not detract from the fact that the education/health/electricity etc. standard that they now have access to has fallen in standard. Whether they had access to it before does not reflect on the actual standard as it was before.

I agree.

It is a very African mentality ( by African I mean continent, as in a prevalent ethos throughout the entire region NOT race ) that everyone should be at the same level. This is sheer nonsense, ideally those who are better off should be assisting those who are lesser but not to their own detriment as that would stop them being able to help the lesser.

For example: A programmer writes code that improves the efficiency of a plant by 300%. This increases said companies revenues, improves the economy and helps the poor by greater taxes being generated and hopefully company community initiatives reward the local community as well.

This programmer gets paid a much larger salary than your avg worker because he benefits the company he works for by so much more than a standard worker. Yet in the mentality prevalent today, people want him to earn the same salary as a worker doing a low end job?

That is why we have a brain drain in this country. Not because people are stupid or lazy but because you can get rewarded better for your work elsewhere.

 

[Krypto]

Yes, but you fail to understand the relativity. More people in turn means more tax revenues, an increased budget, an increased public workforce. Its all a matter of scale. Many countries, much larger than South Africa, are able to achieve decent public infrastructure.

Glad you finally joined the discussion in stead of...never mind. I didn't miss the accompanying increase in resources but how proportional is it to requirements? SA has a very high rate of unemployment & "low education", this means a large number of people who do not contribute to the economy positively, it means they don't contribute to skills development/ to crime prevention/ education/ raising proper families, etc.

This also means they contribute to crime, poverty, unemployment (yes, unemployed people contribute to unemployment), aids and a whole lot of other negative things whether directly or indirectly.
This in turn means the previously mentioned resources are stretched even further and not replenished and this becomes a vicious cycle.