Whats wrong with who?

[semiautomatix]

Glad you finally joined the discussion in stead of...never mind. I didn't miss the accompanying increase in resources but how proportional is it to requirements. SA has a very high rate of unemployment & "low education", this means a large number of people who do not contribute to the economy positively, it means they don't contribute to skills development/ to crime prevention/ education/ raising proper families, etc.

This also means they contribute to crime, poverty, unemployment (yes, unemployed people contribute to unemployment), aids and a whole lot of other negative things whether directly or indirectly.
This in turn means the previously mentioned resources are stretched even further and not replenished and this becomes a vicious cycle.

Well, there has been a large level of trolling in the CA recently and I'm fed up with... never mind

Yes but we've had 1 1/2 decades to decrease unemployment, and even if the wealth is going to a few black elite the average GDP has increased vigorously. The question is where are the increased resources disappearing to? Why do we spends millions on Zuma and Shaik when they are not members of government or parliament? The average person's level of living has not increased dramatically over the past decade.

This reminds me of a quote from a Cuban woman stating that it was the intention of Castro to make everyone equal. But instead of lifting everyone up, he pulled everyone down. Its very subjective, this equality thing. This is why many poor people are upset, they wanted to be like the "white" people were; but instead everything is downgraded so they'll be like the "white" people are.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Yes, but you fail to understand the relativity. More people in turn means more tax revenues, an increased budget, an increased public workforce. Its all a matter of scale. Many countries, much larger than South Africa, are able to achieve decent public infrastructure.

Not necessarily, personal tax being what it is here, changes that idea, as in 5 million people earning R4000 pm, are only on PAYE, nothing more and if another 5 million are payed casual wages per week, no tax revenue as such.

Increase workforce but at what skill level?

Agree many countries are able to , but how long have they had to achieve the infrastructure? and how was the previous infrastructure they build on?

Remember, that the infrastructure was at breaking point BEFORE 94, and that 14 years to first mend , and then try to make it grow, is not that long.

 

[Krypto]

I agree.

It is a very African mentality ( by African I mean continent, as in a prevalent ethos throughout the entire region NOT race ) that everyone should be at the same level. This is sheer nonsense, ideally those who are better off should be assisting those who are lesser but not to their own detriment as that would stop them being able to help the lesser.

For example: A programmer writes code that improves the efficiency of a plant by 300%. This increases said companies revenues, improves the economy and helps the poor by greater taxes being generated and hopefully company community initiatives reward the local community as well.

This programmer gets paid a much larger salary than your avg worker because he benefits the company he works for by so much more than a standard worker. Yet in the mentality prevalent today, people want him to earn the same salary as a worker doing a low end job?

That is why we have a brain drain in this country. Not because people are stupid or lazy but because you can get rewarded better for your work elsewhere.

Your response seems to have no relevance to what zenbaas or I were saying except if you are saying that standards for HDI's should be increased and those for HAI's should also be increased accordingly so that they remain proportionally superior.

I doubt you meant that so I see no relevance in you argument and I think your view that Africans have less appreciation for reward that's proportional to effort is baseless. I think its more of an individual philosophy than a trait of Africans in general. You can bring forth your proof of course.

 

[Kosmik]

Not necessarily, personal tax being what it is here, changes that idea, as in 5 million people earning R4000 pm, are only on PAYE, nothing more and if another 5 million are payed casual wages per week, no tax revenue as such.

Increase workforce but at what skill level?

Agree many countries are able to , but how long have they had to achieve the infrastructure? and how was the previous infrastructure they build on?

Remember, that the infrastructure was at breaking point BEFORE 94, and that 14 years to first mend , and then try to make it grow, is not that long.

Ahem, Taiwan's five year plan strategy anyone?

 

[Kosmik]

Your response seems to have no relevance to what zenbaas or I were saying except if you are saying that standards for HDI's should be increased and those for HAI's should also be increased accordingly so that they remain proportionally superior.

I doubt you meant that so I see no relevance in you argument and I think your view that Africans have less appreciation for reward that's proportional to effort is baseless. I think its more of an individual philosophy than a trait of Africans in general. You can bring forth your proof of course.

Simple proof : Voiced by the ANCYL leader in parliment a couple days ago stating that Advocates in the High Court should earn the same as your average entry level police officer.

I didn't say it, he did, on national television.

 

[Krypto]

Simple proof : Voiced by the ANCYL leader in parliment a couple days ago stating that Advocates in the High Court should earn the same as your average entry level police officer.

I didn't say it, he did, on national television.

I think its more of an individual philosophy than a trait of Africans in general. You can bring forth your proof of course.

 

[semiautomatix]

Not necessarily, personal tax being what it is here, changes that idea, as in 5 million people earning R4000 pm, are only on PAYE, nothing more and if another 5 million are payed casual wages per week, no tax revenue as such.

Increase workforce but at what skill level?

Agree many countries are able to , but how long have they had to achieve the infrastructure? and how was the previous infrastructure they build on?

Remember, that the infrastructure was at breaking point BEFORE 94, and that 14 years to first mend , and then try to make it grow, is not that long.

And you forget about this massive growing black middle and upper class. There will always be low income earners, and these are being dramatically offset by an increase in other tiers. The GDP speaks for itself. As such the excuses, at least after 14 years, are becoming thinner and thinner.

Tax revenue has increased from R150b (2000) to R450b (2005).
GDP increase from R289b (1990) to R1 523b (2005)

EDIT: in fact, our GDP per capita is higher than some EU member states!

 

[Nanfeishen]

Ahem, Taiwan's five year plan strategy anyone?

Taiwan has had a higher education system for far longer for their entire population, and they have something that we dont - National Pride, that in itself is an amazing driving force.

 

[semiautomatix]

Simple proof : Voiced by the ANCYL leader in parliment a couple days ago stating that Advocates in the High Court should earn the same as your average entry level police officer.

I didn't say it, he did, on national television.

Makes 'em easier to bribe.

 

[Krypto]

Well, there has been a large level of trolling in the CA recently and I'm fed up with... never mind

Yes but we've had 1 1/2 decades to decrease unemployment, and even if the wealth is going to a few black elite the average GDP has increased vigorously. The question is where are the increased resources disappearing to? Why do we spends millions on Zuma and Shaik when they are not members of government or parliament? The average person's level of living has not increased dramatically over the past decade.

This reminds me of a quote from a Cuban woman stating that it was the intention of Castro to make everyone equal. But instead of lifting everyone up, he pulled everyone down. Its very subjective, this equality thing. This is why many poor people are upset, they wanted to be like the "white" people were; but instead everything is downgraded so they'll be like the "white" people are.

I believe Nanfeishen has answered you already, and very well at that. To make it a little clearer you might want to ask yourself this. How easy would it have been to rebuild SA after 94 if
1. The standard of education was reasonably high
2. All SAfricans had adequate access to basic services
3. People were used to fending to themselves instead of measly handouts from government
4. The infrastructure was well developed throughout SA and not only in select areas
5. The absence of all of the above was not there to worsen the situation? (This is the main part of my argument)

I think we have drifted very far from the topic of this thread

 

[Nanfeishen]

I think we have drifted very far from the topic of this thread

But at least its been a civilised drift

 

[Vrotappel]

I am well aware of this and in my position probably feel the consequences more. The question remains, why would people want things to be worse, why do they feel better when things get worse?

Read my signature.

(and when I change it again this post will make no sense).

 

[Krypto]

It has been a very civilised drift indeed, we are maturing

Read my signature.

(and when I change it again this post will make no sense).

I don't see what you mean, its one thing to expect things to go badly and a whole other to hope things go badly.

, for a moment there I thought you said when you change it the whole thread will make no sense

 

[Zenbaas]

Taiwan has had a higher education system for far longer for their entire population, and they have something that we dont - National Pride, that in itself is an amazing driving force.

Thus they have something that we dont,a higher education systemfor their entire population

That in itself as i have highlighted is in all probability what allows them to thrive more than anything. Our education system on the other hand only goal is to "spit" learners out of school so that we have increased the number of matriculated graduates instead of capable graduates on a sufficient level.
AA and BEE will continue indefinitely if this is not addressed as AA and BEE will never give you those necessary skills.

Our education system should be our MAIN and FIRST priority. Only then will all of us be able to compete on equal footing. But this is not governments goals. Its is much easier to Stuff workers in at the top end and thus appease the masses instead of actually implementing a proper solution.

Also the fact that apparently a 1/3 of municipal workers are illiterate (the thread is here somewhere)does illustrate this particular problem quite nicely.

 

[Kosmik]

An individual said it but he represents a large community who agree with him and unfortunately is a " future political leader of the nation ".

 

[Kosmik]

Thus they have something that we dont,a higher education systemfor their entire population

That in itself as i have highlighted is in all probability what allows them to thrive more than anything. Our education system on the other hand only goal is to "spit" learners out of school so that we have increased the number of matriculated graduates instead of capable graduates on a sufficient level.
AA and BEE will continue indefinitely if this is not addressed as AA and BEE will never give you those necessary skills.

Our education system should be our MAIN and FIRST priority. Only then will all of us be able to compete on equal footing. But this is not governments goals. Its is much easier to Stuff workers in at the top end and thus appease the masses instead of actually implementing a proper solution.

Also the fact that apparently a 1/3 of municipal workers are illiterate (the thread is here somewhere)does illustrate this particular problem quite nicely.

The education system definately needs to be looked at again. From an employers perspective, I can tell you that I don't trust modern education from about 2000.

Also I agree, it is nice to have a rational disussion. Maybe the flamers and trollers are at school where their mentality proves them to be?

 

[Nanfeishen]

But my point was not to try and justify government's policies but to understand why some people, black and white, feel that nothing is going right in SA and more importantly seem to feel better when things go wrong.

To answer this one needs to understand Negative Bias, it is the way our brain is hard wired, in that it is more sensitive to negative news than positive, and it is on a ratio of 1 - 5 , one bit of bad news takes 5 bits of good news to overcome it, and when last have we had 5 bits of good news in any newspaper or heard 5 bits of good news about SA in general?
So i believe that the majority of these negative individuals are suffering from one of the following:

Negative bias is a tendency to look at the more negative side of some event, person, object, or situation. It gives a negative interpretation or a negative point of view for looking at a situation.

Negative selective abstraction. Selective abstraction means taking negative features of a situation out of context and exaggerating their significance. Usually it also means negating positive features. Example: A student who gets four "A"s and one "C," then focuses on the "C's."

Overgeneralization. When we overgeneralize, we assume far-reaching conclusions from limited data. A student made a "D" on one test. She overgeneralizes, she doesn't just think "Well, I messed up on that one test. Instead, "I may not pass the course, not ever finish college." "I must be stupid and a failure." "My whole life is ruined."

Thinking in extremes--exaggerating differences, dichotomous thinking. Everything is either black or white, wonderful or awful, always or never. It leads to exaggerated emotions. Catastrophizing may provide an excuse for not being able to deal with it and get rewarded by others

And normally they flock together to boost each others negativity

http://www.csulb.edu/~tstevens/hnegcog.htm
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030620-000001.html

 

[Zenbaas]

To answer this one needs to understand Negative Bias, it is the way our brain is hard wired, in that it is more sensitive to negative news than positive, and it is on a ratio of 1 - 5 , one bit of bad news takes 5 bits of good news to overcome it, and when last have we had 5 bits of good news in any newspaper or heard 5 bits of good news about SA in general?
So i believe that the majority of these negative individuals are suffering from one of the following:

Good news in SA does seem to be a scarce species. Its going the way of the dodo ATM

 

[semiautomatix]

I believe Nanfeishen has answered you already, and very well at that. To make it a little clearer you might want to ask yourself this. How easy would it have been to rebuild SA after 94 if
1. The standard of education was reasonably high
2. All SAfricans had adequate access to basic services
3. People were used to fending to themselves instead of measly handouts from government
4. The infrastructure was well developed throughout SA and not only in select areas
5. The absence of all of the above was not there to worsen the situation? (This is the main part of my argument)

I think we have drifted very far from the topic of this thread

Please explain these figures then?

Tax revenue has increased from R150b (2000) to R450b (2005).
GDP increase from R289b (1990) to R1 523b (2005)

EDIT: in fact, our GDP per capita is higher than some EU member states!

 

[semiautomatix]

The education system definately needs to be looked at again. From an employers perspective, I can tell you that I don't trust modern education from about 2000.

Also I agree, it is nice to have a rational disussion. Maybe the flamers and trollers are at school where their mentality proves them to be?

OBE helping to push stupid students through since the early 2000s