TimTDP
Expert Member
I am a white male. Zuma will not let me get employeed!
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Where are South Africa's Software Developers?
- Thread starter rpm
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Perhaps you are are joking and if that's the case I appologise in advance.
But if you are not joking.. you are quite pathetic using that as an excuse; and I am so tired of many like you who pity themselves and try blame BEE for your lack of motivation and laziness.
saliehendricks
Senior Member
The company I work for has had surprisingly good staff retention. The developers that are currently here have been here for 4+yrs. Not sure if it is the fact that the company is pretty decent or that the challenges keep us entertained.
But if you are looking for some experienced C# devs who understand the pain of silverlight RIA services - PM me
But if you are looking for some experienced C# devs who understand the pain of silverlight RIA services - PM me
Kosmik
Honorary Master
I agree, most places that are looking for developers are far more intrested in your skill than skin colour.
TimTDP
Expert Member
boerseun
Senior Member
I am a Delphi developer with more than 10 years experience, I have very recently (last 6 months) started Java development. The change from Delphi to Java was less painfull than I anticipated.
There is a lack of senior developers because no one wants to hire and therefore train the junior developers. Companies advertise roles for junior developers but what there are actually looking for are desperate mid-level to senior developers.
The requirements for these supposedly junior positions are outrageous, especially for the salries on offer, not to mention the fact that they often require 2-3 years worth of experience...for a junior position!
The industry is creating its own shortage. People cannot become EXPERIENCED senior developers if you don't bloody train them.
The requirements for these supposedly junior positions are outrageous, especially for the salries on offer, not to mention the fact that they often require 2-3 years worth of experience...for a junior position!
The industry is creating its own shortage. People cannot become EXPERIENCED senior developers if you don't bloody train them.
Messugga
Honorary Master
I sort of feel similar to Shred on this one. I hear of a bunch of people complaining about not being able to find proper jobs because of some stupid excuse or another. They seem to neglect the fact that they are technically inept and that they don't do their part in learning new technologies and keeping current.
MagicDude4Eva
Banned
I think there is a huge gap between experience and salary expectations. Senior Developers are asking for about 40K (or R400/p.h.). Wanted to hire a Jnr Java Developer (6 months hands-on experience) who worked at SITA for 8K p.m. and offered 20K p.m. - the same resource was "snatched" up by one of the banks for 30K - honestly a salary which I would have never paid for the skills provided. The majority of well skilled people are very unlikely to move for a small pay increase and companies will not pay a premium.
Looking at university graduates is equally shocking - 90% of candidates I looked at barely passed their finals and average pass-rate is 60% (I am failing to see how one would employ an IT resource who passes Maths on average at 55% and thinks writing a "Hello World" application in any language qualifies for a 25K starting salary).
Looking at university graduates is equally shocking - 90% of candidates I looked at barely passed their finals and average pass-rate is 60% (I am failing to see how one would employ an IT resource who passes Maths on average at 55% and thinks writing a "Hello World" application in any language qualifies for a 25K starting salary).
You may be joking but your comment does hold merit and Shred is naive for dismissing it as lazyness. Fact of the matter is that even IT companies need to be BEE compliant. If you are going to be denied opportunities for career advancement based on skin colour, it may be beneficial to find a job in another country where they do not discriminate based on race.
Where are South Africa's Software Developers?
Maybe look at BEE/AA laws chasing them away and our education system being so crap that the input of qualified developers into the market is reduced.
Kosmik
Honorary Master
I don't understand why Tertiary institutions don't force students to do at least six months real world development. There's plenty of Non-profits and charities that could benefit from a decent, simple IT system and it'll give students an idea of the give and take required for a succesful SDLC.
It's precisely those that are well qualified and motivated to excel at their careers that think twice about employment in ZA because of BEE/AA.
Messugga
Honorary Master
Who said they should be keeping current by reading books? I personally feel books are almost useless except when researching some especially technical things or design patterns and such. Compared to real-world experience obtained from working on opensource projects or even just small projects at home, at least.
all the major universities does get 3rd year students to engage external companies for a small project while studying. Its not hardcore coding for 6 months though, and they do the whole sdlc (someone manages, some are BA's etc). Not everyone is a developer. However the last group we had was only allowed to do a very small project, which I think wasnt quite intructive enough.
Speaking from an outsiders point of view (I am not a programmer), I do not dispute what you programmers feel on salaries. That would chase people overseas.
But if one looks at why youngsters are not entering the arena (if they were, there would be no shortage), the use of MS and other proprietary products do not conjure up innovation and the willingness to try doing some programs.
I feel that if opensource was used in schools, where kids could get their hands onto source code, there would be a lot more takers as they can learn from code done by others. They would be able to change and experiment, and derive the thrill of getting things to work as they would like. Instead, because of the use of canned proprietary, it remains a black hole until you hit tertiary education.
But if one looks at why youngsters are not entering the arena (if they were, there would be no shortage), the use of MS and other proprietary products do not conjure up innovation and the willingness to try doing some programs.
I feel that if opensource was used in schools, where kids could get their hands onto source code, there would be a lot more takers as they can learn from code done by others. They would be able to change and experiment, and derive the thrill of getting things to work as they would like. Instead, because of the use of canned proprietary, it remains a black hole until you hit tertiary education.
I've also shaken my head at that.
When I started working as a junior programmer in 1999 I was earning R4500 per month. As far as I know salaries haven't quadrupled in the last 12 years and even at that time it was low pay and I had to live with my folks to survive.
I worked along side a BEE employee who didn't have a clue how to program and was earning multiple times more than I was. He later moved into management.
I've also worked with a lot of so called programmers (non BEE) with 2+ years of experience who didn't have basic problem solving skills or couldn't figure out how to implement a quick sort, bubble sort or binary sort algorithm even with the algorithm explained in detail in front of them.
Programming requires a certain amount of aptitude which cannot be learnt IMO. You either have what it takes to be a programmer or you don't.
Generally the type of people who require spoon feeding don't make good programmers. You can show them how to do something 10 times but when one variable or parameter is changed they come begging for help again.
ipodmusicman
Senior Member
I've always known for many years that we software developers are in demand. It is great for job security since if something had to go wrong whereby I was retrenched or the company goes under, I'll be able to find another job quite easily. I've been with my current employer for nearly 13 years now doing Java development, system architecture, design, etc.
We are currently hiring at the moment and we are finding that the job market is very competitive. We do 3 stage interviews - we are VERY thorough - and we found that potential candidates get snapped up very quickly by other companies. It is difficult to find good intermediate candidates as well.
We are currently hiring at the moment and we are finding that the job market is very competitive. We do 3 stage interviews - we are VERY thorough - and we found that potential candidates get snapped up very quickly by other companies. It is difficult to find good intermediate candidates as well.
That is a double edge sword. If you only rely on the training you get, you will only be as good as the quality of the training. Most training found locally are geared more to junior level. I have yet to find a decent Senior level course, unless you start looking at masters level courses at university level. However that is more general. No in depth sharepoing training would be found there.
Have anyone seen what companies offer for senior developers? The last time I checked it was deplorable, it was the same amount that midrange dev's got. No wonder people are going overseas, because its the only way they can advance and improve knowledge and their financial position.
I started working as a junior programmer in the UK at 22000 pounds a year. That was about R22k a month at the time. Graduates tend to be massively underpaid in SA, but I dont think skilled and senior programmers are underpaid. Depends on the company though I suppose.
You said it yourself, you arent a programmer. Just because someone uses a Microsoft product, doesnt mean that there is no innovation involved or that all their work is done for them. Microsoft in fact makes some of the best development tools on the planet, and yes, they are even used for open source projects.
You need to learn to distinguish between a product and a project. An open source project can use proprietary products, and vice versa. Open source vs closed source does not imply anything about innovation or lack thereof, its just a different license and development model. Not that those arent big differences, they are, they just have little to do with innovation.
You said it yourself, you arent a programmer. Just because someone uses a Microsoft product, doesnt mean that there is no innovation involved or that all their work is done for them. Microsoft in fact makes some of the best development tools on the planet, and yes, they are even used for open source projects.
You need to learn to distinguish between a product and a project. An open source project can use proprietary products, and vice versa. Open source vs closed source does not imply anything about innovation or lack thereof, its just a different license and development model. Not that those arent big differences, they are, they just have little to do with innovation.