White man changes surname

[Skeptik]

whites can go where they want how they want and when they want?

i dont recall blacks being able to do this under the afrikaaner government

apartheid was bad blacks couldnt do anything

hense why there are measures in place to ensure that black ppl get jobs

this is not racial discrimination, its settings things right in the wrong way dunno if that makes sense

Of course it is discrimination. Simply because in order to justify such an action you have to start with the assumption that black and white people are different - which they are not.

Young people leaving school are (and will be in the forseeable future) being taught that their friends with contrasting coloured skin are different and some of them will be excluded from occupations based on their race.

This should be in a manual entitle "How to perpetuate racism 101".

 

[MyDraadloos]

The melanin question

An opinion is like an *******, everybody has one.

Paying for the sins of the father, that is all it is.

@ Bageloo - AA is about as fair as the Indian cast system.

 

[(DmZ)Wrecky]

What would be fair though? Continuing in the same, BEE/AA manner for the next 50 years. That is was/is needed is undisputed, what I want to know is for how long still?

 

[mancombseepgood]

THere was AA in APARTHEID. THey only give jobs to whites. Now it is the reverse.?

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head for some people Sipho - lotsa people have been saying this... apartheid all over...
By the way, i am still waiting for your answer - what is your home language and where in SA are you from?

 

[Bageloo]

Poeple poeple poeple.
When will you learn to accept the new SA and Africans.
We change the country to a rainbo naiton........ it is much better thn EVER b4... when the minority ruld.

Cant we just all get along together=?
Why moan about AA. THere was AA in APARTHEID. THey only give jobs to whites. Now it is the reverse.?

Hamba kahle!.
Siphoweni Makuphula-Mpazi.

Sipho, I'm sorry to tell you but apartheid does not equal to AA. Apartheid gave jobs to whites who were not even qualified (Telkom, PO). AA gives preference to blacks who are suitably qualified.

"@ Bageloo - AA is about as fair as the Indian cast system" I agree but we still need it.

"AA and BEE has resulted in people not qualified for their positions. Dead wood. " I totally disagree. I'm in the IT industry. There's plenty of AA adrvetisments on the net. The requirements are the same, a degree, certifcation and experience. Just because it's AA does not mean any black person can have it. Otherwise I should be the head of the division by now. 99.99999% of the senior managers in the company are white males. When one retires, should he be replaced with another white male? No, but there should have been a black/woman candidate nominated and groomed for succesion.

 

[Leitmotif]

No-one gets groomed for succession, you get the job if you can do the job.

AA is going to be around for as long as the government insists on dumbing down educational standards in it's schools, and providing the absolute minimum resources possible.

I don't get it. What point was there in abolishing Apartheid if it is replaced by a reversed version? Are whites going to have to create their own struggle movement? Will the ANC be as tolerant of the white struggle as the old rulers were of the ANC?

 

[(DmZ)Wrecky]

Will history repeat itself?
Are we not supposed to learn from history and not make the same mistakes again?

 

[dlk001]

Will the ANC be as tolerant of the white struggle as the old rulers were of the ANC?

Were the old rulers tolerant?

Without AA being enforced, black people who are equally qualified or better than their white counterparts were getting no where. At least, that was my
experience in the CSIR since 1995 - 2003. It has been the experience of many of my friends in their respective fields and companies.

Blacks in CSIR were just used a tokens to acquire more funds from government while white people were allowed to advance themselves with MSc's, PhD's.

Is there any other way this problem could have been fixed?

 

[Bageloo]

No-one gets groomed for succession, you get the job if you can do the job.

AA is going to be around for as long as the government insists on dumbing down educational standards in it's schools, and providing the absolute minimum resources possible.

I don't get it. What point was there in abolishing Apartheid if it is replaced by a reversed version? Are whites going to have to create their own struggle movement? Will the ANC be as tolerant of the white struggle as the old rulers were of the ANC?

No grooming for succession ? How does one ascend to top level positions like CEO of a company? Don't most directors start by being deputy directors first? Are you dumb or what?

Educational expenditure has increased. What are you on about? Are you even educated?

Tolerance to you is locking up ppl in prisons and banning their organisations?

 

[Leitmotif]

Okay, clearly both of you can only read in one direction. So, what I was asking is would .gov treat white people who protest the same as the Nats treated blacks? If so, then how has the country progressed?

I'm more educated than most people coming out of .za schools today will ever be. Ad hominem attacks do not impress me, and do nothing to prove your point. Educational expenditure may be up in rands, but in relative value? .gov is making the barest concessions to educational spending, and spreading it far too thin. They open new schools but have no money for textbooks, for teachers, for educational aids like projectors and the rest. More needs to be done.

Climbing the ladder is not 'grooming'. For each position there are a set of responsibilities, and by fulfilling them you prove that you are worthy of the responsibilities of the next. It's advancement, not 'grooming'.

 

[Bageloo]

Okay, clearly both of you can only read in one direction. So, what I was asking is would .gov treat white people who protest the same as the Nats treated blacks? If so, then how has the country progressed?

I'm more educated than most people coming out of .za schools today will ever be. Ad hominem attacks do not impress me, and do nothing to prove your point. Educational expenditure may be up in rands, but in relative value? .gov is making the barest concessions to educational spending, and spreading it far too thin. They open new schools but have no money for textbooks, for teachers, for educational aids like projectors and the rest. More needs to be done.

Climbing the ladder is not 'grooming'. For each position there are a set of responsibilities, and by fulfilling them you prove that you are worthy of the responsibilities of the next. It's advancement, not 'grooming'.

" Educational expenditure may be up in rands, but in relative value? "
Relative to what? Take a look at the government expenditure again. You might change your tune on the percentage spent on education.
Clearly, your education has not helped much because prejudice is still clouding your judgement. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white child than on the black child. The fact that there may have been reduction of government expenditure in former white schools does not mean that expenditure has decreased overall. Salaries for most black teachers had to be almost doubled in 1996 to match their white counterparts. Education expenditure in the poor communities has increased substatially. In the 2006 Budget, education received R92.1-billion, amounting to 17.8% of total gevernment spending.

By "grooming" I actually mean "fast tracking" a potential incumbent. Many companies already use this stragety through mentorship and graduate programs. The result of which is not "dead wood" but people that have been trained by the very best in the industry.

 

[Leitmotif]

" Educational expenditure may be up in rands, but in relative value? "
Relative to what? Take a look at the government expenditure again. You might change your tune on the percentage spent on education.
Clearly, your education has not helped much because prejudice is still clouding your judgement. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white child than on the black child. The fact that there may have been reduction of government expenditure in former white schools does not mean that expenditure has decreased overall. Salaries for most black teachers had to be almost doubled in 1996 to match their white counterparts. Education expenditure in the poor communities has increased substatially. In the 2006 Budget, education received R92.1-billion, amounting to 17.8% of total gevernment spending.

By "grooming" I actually mean "fast tracking" a potential incumbent. Many companies already use this stragety through mentorship and graduate programs. The result of which is not "dead wood" but people that have been trained by the very best in the industry.

Relative to the quality of education received per pupil.

Again, arguing ad hominem. An indication of an emotional, and thus weak, argument. Excusable on these boards, it seems, but inexcusable from a logical point of view.

More kids are actually going to school. That means more needs to be spent to get the same quality of education per child. This isn't happening, as the news and the dept. of education are reporting. Instead, .gov prefers to run in the direction of the lowest common denominator, decreasing the standard of education while pointing frantically at their increases and denying any problem exists.

17.8% of .gov spending, to be sure, but .gov has been criticised for underspending. And while the percentage may look good on paper, how much does it do to redress the failings of education, particularly in poorer communities? How much does it cost to build an education system virtually from scratch? Looking to developed countries for guidelines won't work. We need to do more.

I've worked at a lot of companies, and never seen or heard of a 'fast tracking' program. The only graduate programs I know of are to give university graduates a chance to get experience, seeing how hard it is to get a job without any.

 

[jontyB]

" Educational expenditure may be up in rands, but in relative value? "
Relative to what? Take a look at the government expenditure again. You might change your tune on the percentage spent on education.
Clearly, your education has not helped much because prejudice is still clouding your judgement. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white child than on the black child. The fact that there may have been reduction of government expenditure in former white schools does not mean that expenditure has decreased overall. Salaries for most black teachers had to be almost doubled in 1996 to match their white counterparts. Education expenditure in the poor communities has increased substatially. In the 2006 Budget, education received R92.1-billion, amounting to 17.8% of total gevernment spending.

Clearly your education taught you how to be an ass rather thoroughly. The government can spend billions on education, but it's not about quantity - it's about quality. Quality education is what sets First World countries apart from the rest.

By "grooming" I actually mean "fast tracking" a potential incumbent. Many companies already use this stragety through mentorship and graduate programs. The result of which is not "dead wood" but people that have been trained by the very best in the industry.

Fast tracking is never ever ever a good thing. Fast tracking transformation has led to a few benefiting hugely while the majority suffer. The only time "grooming" works is in an environment where a person receives on the job training to do a specific job, i.e. an apprenticeship.

CEO's are not groomed into position, they gain experience and climb the corporate ladder plus further their education in line with market expectations.

 

[mancombseepgood]

"@ Bageloo - AA is about as fair as the Indian cast system" I agree but we still need it.

The question is... how do you get white buy in and skills transferral and mentoring when you just tell someone flatly to take a dip in salary and appoint their junior to the position above them when they are expected to carry the can and do the same job...
AA is not enough - people need skills otherwise they don't benefit - they just get stressed cos they can't deliver.

 

[Bageloo]

Relative to the quality of education received per pupil.

Again, arguing ad hominem. An indication of an emotional, and thus weak, argument. Excusable on these boards, it seems, but inexcusable from a logical point of view.

More kids are actually going to school. That means more needs to be spent to get the same quality of education per child. This isn't happening, as the news and the dept. of education are reporting. Instead, .gov prefers to run in the direction of the lowest common denominator, decreasing the standard of education while pointing frantically at their increases and denying any problem exists.

17.8% of .gov spending, to be sure, but .gov has been criticised for underspending. And while the percentage may look good on paper, how much does it do to redress the failings of education, particularly in poorer communities? How much does it cost to build an education system virtually from scratch? Looking to developed countries for guidelines won't work. We need to do more.

I've worked at a lot of companies, and never seen or heard of a 'fast tracking' program. The only graduate programs I know of are to give university graduates a chance to get experience, seeing how hard it is to get a job without any.

Progressive comapanies realise the need to hire black candidates to management positions. Since there is a shortage of suitably qualified black candidates, they choose to develop their own. First the company gives you a bursary to acquire your degree and they hire you into a graduate program and then you get rotated throughout the organisation to learn as much as possible in as short a time as possible. then after 2 - 3 years you get promoted to replace that retiring old manager and continue to be mentored by one elected director or executive and then another four years down the line you get appointed director. To me this is "fast tracking". Under normal circumstances, you'd have had to spend 20 years before you could get there, right?

 

[mancombseepgood]

Well

To me this is "fast tracking". Under normal circumstances, you'd have had to spend 20 years before you could get there, right?

You would need experience and a track record obviously.

 

[Bageloo]

The question is... how do you get white buy in and skills transferral and mentoring when you just tell someone flatly to take a dip in salary and appoint their junior to the position above them when they are expected to carry the can and do the same job...
AA is not enough - people need skills otherwise they don't benefit - they just get stressed cos they can't deliver.

What you have just described is a very good example of bad AA implementation. A better way is not to demote or fire the incumbent. Rather replace him/her more naturaly i.e resignation, retirements, etc. Some companies would actually move the old senior manager aside to work on key projects on a more consultative role and let the AA candidate assume the line management duties. That way the old gaurd is still available for consultation and of course is in charge of a project.
This process does not have to be painful as most people tend to fear. In most big corporations, it is actually working very well.

 

[mancombseepgood]

What you have just described is a very good example of bad AA implementation.

Bad or not - this is what EVERYONE is complaining about - it happens all over!

 

[Bageloo]

You would need experience and a track record obviously.

Agree, that experience and track record is acquired much quicker because your carreer was very much focused from the very start.

 

[mancombseepgood]

What you have just described is a very good example of bad AA implementation. A better way is not to demote or fire the incumbent. Rather replace him/her more naturaly i.e resignation, retirements, etc. Some companies would actually move the old senior manager aside to work on key projects on a more consultative role and let the AA candidate assume the line management duties. That way the old gaurd is still available for consultation and of course is in charge of a project.
This process does not have to be painful as most people tend to fear. In most big corporations, it is actually working very well.

Big corporations...
How many corporations cannot afford to give their employees medical aid or some form of retirement plan... let alone hiring additional staff - these are not very common.
As we have seen in the case of Telkom - one of the richest companies in the country - and with very good government backing, more money does NOT equate to more jobs..., in fact, with governments blessing, it has equated to LESS jobs.