White man changes surname

[Bageloo]

How's that? Apart from a select few who are born with a golden spoon in their mouth, how can an AA candidate who worked hard and topped his/her class have a diminished chance of being the best candidate? If you give a group of people the chance to succeed irrespective of colour in a fair and competitive pool, the best will rise to the occasion. If you work as hard as you can and you aim to succeed, it is not fair to say: "sorry, though you're top of the class, you're the wrong race."

If only it was that simple. For example take two kids that were born in '88. The white kid went to a white school. The black kid went to a black township school. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white school than it did on the black school. The legacy at the township school is still evident. Non-existent teaching aids, infrastructure, fascilities, poorly trained/qualified teachers etc. The two kids matriculate and go to varsity. The white kid's superior high school background means easy sailing at varsity, afterall he had As for maths and science. the black kid had Es for maths and science will struggle and will not really graduate "cum laude" even though he might get his degree in the end. Job interviews. The black kid is battling with spoken english, the language of the interviewer. The white kids breezes through, it's his mother tongue.
What I'm trying to explain is that, you cannot undo what was done over centuries in one decade

The past is now in the past, let the new generation fight it out the way it was meant to be. Survival of the fittest - not survival 'cos I'm the blackest.

Only if you could wipe the slate clean completely. You can't do that as apartheid/colonialism created far reaching socio-econmic problems. Poeple tend to think of apartheid as only political and now that anyone can vote, go wherever they want, marry whoever they want. they should be OK. AA is meant to be a socio-economic solutions to the inequalities that exist even today after 12 years of democracy.

 

[kilo39]

Only if you could wipe the slate clean completely. You can't do that as apartheid/colonialism created far reaching socio-econmic problems. Poeple tend to think of apartheid as only political and now that anyone can vote, go wherever they want, marry whoever they want. they should be OK. AA is meant to be a socio-economic solutions to the inequalities that exist even today after 12 years of democracy.

I don't see the world this way round. If the government had of been spending money in the places where it could do the most good (instead of being fixated on "their way") then we wouldn't be dealing with the situation we are now. If the government had of built the new koeberg or laid 100 000 k's of road (or merely maintained what was in place) - if the government had of continued "the housing policy" or performed any one of the large tasks they had been elected for (and not dumb things like renaming airports ad-infinitum) then their would be thousands of brick layers, pipe layers and the millions of other "lower waged jobs." Instead they "employ" incompetents to run local councils, provinces, etc. Total mismanagement, fraud and corruption largely performed under the auspices of AA and BEE. If "these people" performed instead of shopping for their latest BM then maybe we would all go somewhere. More buying power (lower waged peeps) equal more healthy market equal everyone is better off.

Fix it!! (and its not about BEE and AA - endless paperwork crap; why don't people do some real work for a change!!)

 

[jontyB]

If only it was that simple. For example take two kids that were born in '88. The white kid went to a white school. The black kid went to a black township school. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white school than it did on the black school. The legacy at the township school is still evident. Non-existent teaching aids, infrastructure, fascilities, poorly trained/qualified teachers etc. The two kids matriculate and go to varsity. The white kid's superior high school background means easy sailing at varsity, afterall he had As for maths and science. the black kid had Es for maths and science will struggle and will not really graduate "cum laude" even though he might get his degree in the end. Job interviews. The black kid is battling with spoken english, the language of the interviewer. The white kids breezes through, it's his mother tongue.
What I'm trying to explain is that, you cannot undo what was done over centuries in one decade

Only if you could wipe the slate clean completely. You can't do that as apartheid/colonialism created far reaching socio-econmic problems. Poeple tend to think of apartheid as only political and now that anyone can vote, go wherever they want, marry whoever they want. they should be OK. AA is meant to be a socio-economic solutions to the inequalities that exist even today after 12 years of democracy.

Now let's look at it from a different angle. A gifted, hardworking young individual goes to her township school, aces every exam, passes every test and succeeds with flying colours. In her final schooling year she applies for a bursary to study at a top SA University. She is awarded a full bursary. The bursary guarantees her a job once she graduates (and achieves certain objectives). Sound far fetched? It shouldn't - it's happening every year.

But basically you're saying the Township schools are shyte? Well, honestly after 12 years and billions upon billions of Rand thrown into education, whose problem is that?

And do not - do not bring colonialism into the argument. Australia was colonised - and they're easily surpassing us on every level, from sport to world importance. There are hundreds of countries that were colonised, but you know what, it's an African trait to blame colonialism. That's not even a valid argument anyway. It's a cop out.

 

[Xarog]

The only companies I know of that are announcing ridiculous profits are ex-state owned companies that have been privatised, and are now price-gouging the average consumer.

Additionally, AA will never create equality. This country does not currently have the resources for everyone to be well off without actually going off and disposessing the wealthy across the board, and let me tell you that the new black elite will never allow that to happen.

The only means of giving everyone an equal footing in this country is by forcing the govt. to actually start spending in education, and spending enough to give everyone a good education, regardless of their financial situation or racial background.

This is what I originally said. Bageloo ignored it. By implication, he doesn't care about giving everyone an equal chance as much as he cares about making sure that the whites become poorer than they are now (on average) and the blacks become richer (on average).

AA may very well put the majority of the wealth in black hands while leaving the majority of the black people disgustingly poor. I have not seen Bageloo comment on this either (but I might have missed it).

If only it was that simple. For example take two kids that were born in '88. The white kid went to a white school. The black kid went to a black township school. The government used to spend 4 times more on the white school than it did on the black school. The legacy at the township school is still evident. Non-existent teaching aids, infrastructure, fascilities, poorly trained/qualified teachers etc. The two kids matriculate and go to varsity. The white kid's superior high school background means easy sailing at varsity, afterall he had As for maths and science. the black kid had Es for maths and science will struggle and will not really graduate "cum laude" even though he might get his degree in the end. Job interviews. The black kid is battling with spoken english, the language of the interviewer. The white kids breezes through, it's his mother tongue.
What I'm trying to explain is that, you cannot undo what was done over centuries in one decade

How in Hades' name is AA or BEE going to change this? At best you're going to have some poor bliksem stuck in a job he can't do, still struggling with his broken english. THE REAL ANSWER TO THIS PROBLEM IS FIXING THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, NOT RACIST POLITICAL POLICIES!

AA or BEE will NEVER correct the problem you've illustrated.

And do not - do not bring colonialism into the argument. Australia was colonised - and they're easily surpassing us on every level, from sport to world importance. There are hundreds of countries that were colonised, but you know what, it's an African trait to blame colonialism. That's not even a valid argument anyway. It's a cop out.

I agree that colonialism is not a factor here, but I also object to you claiming that complaining about colonialism is merely a cop out. It's not, especially in light of the fact that economic colonialism is alive and well.

 

[jontyB]

I agree that colonialism is not a factor here, but I also object to you claiming that complaining about colonialism is merely a cop out. It's not, especially in light of the fact that economic colonialism is alive and well.

Using it in pro African vs "Settlers" arguments is a cop out. In terms of this debate, colonialism happened a long long time ago, before the world went on an information binge. Apartheid is squarely to blame for prior generations being held back both educationally and economically, however, the ANC government puts billions into education every year (easily one of the biggest slices of the annual budget pie is for education), and it's now getting to the point where 12 (almost 13) years on and still not enough quality education is being provided. Something is obviously not working then. You can only blame a previous regime for so long, at some point in time you're going to have to wake up and realise that the current regime is where the problem lies, like ghost teachers that remained on the Education Department's payroll for who knows how long.

Colonialism - it's caused some problems and some super rich white families should be taken down because they're still reaping the benefits and rewards, but seriously, Africa's problems are probably deeper set along tribal lines than anything else.

 

[Xarog]

I didn't want to get into it because I thought it would hijack the discussion, but then I realised that the current discussion already was a hijack in the first place.

Using it in pro African vs "Settlers" arguments is a cop out. In terms of this debate, colonialism happened a long long time ago, before the world went on an information binge. Apartheid is squarely to blame for prior generations being held back both educationally and economically, however, the ANC government puts billions into education every year (easily one of the biggest slices of the annual budget pie is for education), and it's now getting to the point where 12 (almost 13) years on and still not enough quality education is being provided. Something is obviously not working then. You can only blame a previous regime for so long, at some point in time you're going to have to wake up and realise that the current regime is where the problem lies, like ghost teachers that remained on the Education Department's payroll for who knows how long.

Right, I agree with this absolutely.

Colonialism - it's caused some problems and some super rich white families should be taken down because they're still reaping the benefits and rewards, but seriously, Africa's problems are probably deeper set along tribal lines than anything else.

This is a complex economics argument. Suffice it to say that even if Africa was a place of perfect harmony where there were no tribal problems, and where the politicians were honest, the continent as a whole would still be facing widespread poverty like it currently does. (As a side note, S.A. is more or less exempt from this statement precisely because we never had the IMF dictating economic our economic policies to us.)

 

[Bageloo]

Now let's look at it from a different angle. A gifted, hardworking young individual goes to her township school, aces every exam, passes every test and succeeds with flying colours. In her final schooling year she applies for a bursary to study at a top SA University. She is awarded a full bursary. The bursary guarantees her a job once she graduates (and achieves certain objectives). Sound far fetched? It shouldn't - it's happening every year..

Yes it's happening every year and was happening even during apartheid. But that's an excpetion rather than the norm. You can have a look at township/rural schools matric results to confirm this.

But basically you're saying the Township schools are shyte? Well, honestly after 12 years and billions upon billions of Rand thrown into education, whose problem is that?

It is our problem. Even though gvt spending has icreased in the rural/township schools the fact remains that they are not on par with the white surbub schools. The teacher/pupil ratios, the poor education levels of teachers and the classroom shortages persist even today.

And do not - do not bring colonialism into the argument. Australia was colonised - and they're easily surpassing us on every level, from sport to world importance. There are hundreds of countries that were colonised, but you know what, it's an African trait to blame colonialism. That's not even a valid argument anyway. It's a cop out.

Australia is very bad comparison to SA. Yes we do have a lot in common in terms of rugby, cricket, wheather, former British colony, but that's just about as far as it goes. The difference is the numbers of indegenous people in the respective countries i.e. victims of colonialism. Australia's population is largely made up of the benefectors of colonialism and so is the US. Other countires/continents like Asia and Latin America have had their independence for such a long time it would be insane for any of those to blame colonialism today. African countries have been free from colonialism only in the past thirty/forty years. I can tell you why Africa's independence was delayed compared to other continents, the natural resources that the west was exploiting. But like you siad, this is irrelevant to this debate but I just had to clarify some of the confusion you were sowing.

 

[jontyB]

Yes it's happening every year and was happening even during apartheid. But that's an excpetion rather than the norm. You can have a look at township/rural schools matric results to confirm this.
It is our problem. Even though gvt spending has icreased in the rural/township schools the fact remains that they are not on par with the white surbub schools. The teacher/pupil ratios, the poor education levels of teachers and the classroom shortages persist even today.

Sorry, it just doesn't fly. R12.282 billion was allocated to Gauteng for Education this year alone. If that mammoth amount of money is not utilised properly to better the quality of education all round, then it comes down to incompetence on the part of the Education department. Oh, and while you're on the subject of "white suburb schools", go have a gander at the proportion of the budget that actually goes the way of white suburb schools. And while you're doing that, compare school fees - yeah, to this day parents pay school fees if their kids attend "white suburb schools", and any parent will tell you it's not exactly small change. It's quite simply and 100% incompetence.

Australia is very bad comparison to SA. Yes we do have a lot in common in terms of rugby, cricket, wheather, former British colony, but that's just about as far as it goes. The difference is the numbers of indegenous people in the respective countries i.e. victims of colonialism. Australia's population is largely made up of the benefectors of colonialism and so is the US. Other countires/continents like Asia and Latin America have had their independence for such a long time it would be insane for any of those to blame colonialism today. African countries have been free from colonialism only in the past thirty/forty years. I can tell you why Africa's independence was delayed compared to other continents, the natural resources that the west was exploiting. But like you siad, this is irrelevant to this debate but I just had to clarify some of the confusion you were sowing.

Oz and New Zealand have fewer people than SA and have far, far fewer resources. Their major industries are tourism, agriculture and mining - yet somehow their economies are both bigger and more robust than ours - their currencies are relatively stable and have not been subjected to our huge fluctuations, and as a people, Australia and New Zealand both enjoy massive patriotic pride.

South Africa has one of the richest and most diverse mineral resource bands in the world, has massive influence in Sub Saharan Africa and is all round considered to have one of the best (if not the best) constitutions (even though the constitution actually protects discrimination) in the world. Despite all this, South Africans are suffering. We have worsening unemployment, our education is clearly broken (as you and I have both ascertained), we have huge, uncontrollable crime levels and a telecommunications system that is even slipping behind some of our African counterparts. At this point in time, Oz and NZ are functioning on a level we can only dream of at present.

As for the "confusion I was sowing", really mate, you're stretching now. It took Zimbabwe just a few years to undo the "damage" that was done by the colonialists. Oddly, through that undoing, Zimbabwe has been plunged into what is likely an unrecoverable state of complete and utter brokenness. Do not try and affix todays problems on colonialism at every turn. It's both an utter waste of time and completely irrelevant in the bigger South African picture. Also, in terms of our very own history, it is incorrect and hypocritical to try and pull in colonialism, as the white Europeans were only part of the settlers that settled in South Africa. It is bad enough that all whites are seen as colonialists in this country. We have several forum members who refer to South African citizens who happen to be white as Non-African, which is by definition divisive and unhealthy, and not conducive to cooperation from all people.

 

[Bageloo]

This is what I originally said. Bageloo ignored it. By implication, he doesn't care about giving everyone an equal chance as much as he cares about making sure that the whites become poorer than they are now (on average) and the blacks become richer (on average).

No, you misunderstood me. I made an example of two kids that DO NOT have an equal chance! My concern is poverty that was created by the previous regime and should be corrected by the current regime. AA is but one of the ways to aleviate such poverty. By giving preference to people that are still faced with systematic/circumstantial discrimination.

AA may very well put the majority of the wealth in black hands while leaving the majority of the black people disgustingly poor. I have not seen Bageloo comment on this either (but I might have missed it).

What I'm defending here is AA, employment and educational oportunities. I don't care about BEE which tends to put importance on ownership and board representation. The current GVT is implementing this framework from the TOP down as opposed to the bottom up. I'm totally against that. Only they and their cronies stand to benefit from this implementation.

How in Hades' name is AA or BEE going to change this? At best you're going to have some poor bliksem stuck in a job he can't do, still struggling with his broken english. THE REAL ANSWER TO THIS PROBLEM IS FIXING THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, NOT RACIST POLITICAL POLICIES!
AA or BEE will NEVER correct the problem you've illustrated.

In most cases people cannot do their jobs right away. This is especially true for school leavers and graduates. As for the broken English, most non mother tongue English speaking people speak broken English anyway. It's a reflection on the status of English as a lingo franca in a diverse society. It is not an indication of ability or inability to do the job. But most job interviews are oral and are in English even though the job may not involve a lot of talking in English.

 

[jontyB]

In most cases people cannot do their jobs right away. This is especially true for school leavers and graduates. As for the broken English, most non mother tongue English speaking people speak broken English anyway. It's a reflection on the status of English as a lingo franca in a diverse society. It is not an indication of ability or inability to do the job. But most job interviews are oral and are in English even though the job may not involve a lot of talking in English.

Though the rest of your argument is severely and utterly flawed, I would like to address this gem in particular. Firstly, many, many people living in various African countries both speak and write English exceptionally well. Malawians, for example, have superb enunciation abilities. Middle-western Africans not only speak English quite well, but many can speak Portuguese or French (and often all three) fluently.

Sorry, but Black South African English is both shocking and wildly unintelligible at the best of times. There are, however, those that do learn to speak the language properly, and inevitably this professionalism would lead to better successes in life.

 

[Bageloo]

Again you misunderstood me. Your comparison is not appropriate because there' are very few victims of colonialism in OZ compared to SA. A few aboriginals here and there who are still marginalised does not match up with the absolute majority of disenfracnhised ppl we have in S.Africa. If there were no black ppl in SA then your argument would hold. As far as the natural resources are concerned, we don't own them. The economic paradigm created by colonialsm ensure that the west had free access to africa's resources. We mine the gold but and Anglo-American owns most of it.

 

[Nod]

Again you misunderstood me. Your comparison is not appropriate because there' are very few victims of colonialism in OZ compared to SA. A few aboriginals here and there who are still marginalised does not match up with the absolute majority of disenfracnhised ppl we have in S.Africa. If there were no black ppl in SA then your argument would hold. As far as the natural resources are concerned, we don't own them. The economic paradigm created by colonialsm ensure that the west had free access to africa's resources. We mine the gold but and Anglo-American owns most of it.

The only reason there are so few aboriginals is because of hunting licenses.

 

[jontyB]

Again you misunderstood me. Your comparison is not appropriate because there' are very few victims of colonialism in OZ compared to SA. A few aboriginals here and there who are still marginalised does not match up with the absolute majority of disenfracnhised ppl we have in S.Africa. If there were no black ppl in SA then your argument would hold. As far as the natural resources are concerned, we don't own them. The economic paradigm created by colonialsm ensure that the west had free access to africa's resources. We mine the gold but and Anglo-American owns most of it.

According to migratory evidence, Black people in South Africa were settlers too. In any case, your point is still invalid, as it does not apply in South Africa to the same degree as central Africa.

In any case, I'm tired of talking around in circles with you now. The bottom line is current education in this country is a ****up, and it no longer as anything to do with colonialism or apartheid.

 

[Bageloo]

Though the rest of your argument is severely and utterly flawed, I would like to address this gem in particular. Firstly, many, many people living in various African countries both speak and write English exceptionally well. Malawians, for example, have superb enunciation abilities. Middle-western Africans not only speak English quite well, but many can speak Portuguese or French (and often all three) fluently.

Sorry, but Black South African English is both shocking and wildly unintelligible at the best of times. There are, however, those that do learn to speak the language properly, and inevitably this professionalism would lead to better successes in life.

I see we are starting a whole new debate now. One's mastery of the English language is often equated to professionalism. There are some consumate Afrikaans speaking professionals who can find it quite hard to communicate in English and would rather communicate in Afrikaans. I know there's plenty at Telkom. I think they would have been just as disadvantaged if they had to do their job interviews in English, way back when they joined Telkom. Lucky for them Afrikaans was a defacto standard then. There are jobs that require
very little communication in the form of spoken language. But still their selection criteria is an oral English interview. Don't you think that creates systematic discrimination?

 

[Bageloo]

According to migratory evidence, Black people in South Africa were settlers too. In any case, your point is still invalid, as it does not apply in South Africa to the same degree as central Africa.

In any case, I'm tired of talking around in circles with you now. The bottom line is current education in this country is a ****up, and it no longer as anything to do with colonialism or apartheid.

You are being naive to think that you could erase the damge caused over 400years in just 10 years. I say you you are guilty of oversimplifying the issues.

 

[jontyB]

You are being naive to think that you could erase the damge caused over 400years in just 10 years. I say you you are guilty of oversimplifying the issues.

To be honest I don't really care what you say. I have argued your points meticulously and factually - it's not my problem if you try and drag the past into a problem that is rooted in the present, due more to government and departmental incompetence than anything else.

 

[jontyB]

I see we are starting a whole new debate now. One's mastery of the English language is often equated to professionalism. There are some consumate Afrikaans speaking professionals who can find it quite hard to communicate in English and would rather communicate in Afrikaans. I know there's plenty at Telkom. I think they would have been just as disadvantaged if they had to do their job interviews in English, way back when they joined Telkom. Lucky for them Afrikaans was a defacto standard then. There are jobs that require
very little communication in the form of spoken language. But still their selection criteria is an oral English interview. Don't you think that creates systematic discrimination?

Interesting you try and bring this aspect into it. Many companies in South Africa are adopting a policy of English only. This was debated at length previously on this forum as well. But you have twisted what I was saying - professionalism greatly improves your chances of success. Learning to successfully and fluently command a language is but one facet of professionalism. Good service is another. Interestingly, South African companies are fast becoming a pinnacle for bad service.

Well, it's been fun. Utterly pointless but fun. I do, however, have better things to do with my time.

 

[Bageloo]

Interesting you try and bring this aspect into it. Many companies in South Africa are adopting a policy of English only. This was debated at length previously on this forum as well. But you have twisted what I was saying - professionalism greatly improves your chances of success. Learning to successfully and fluently command a language is but one facet of professionalism. Good service is another. Interestingly, South African companies are fast becoming a pinnacle for bad service.

Well, it's been fun. Utterly pointless but fun. I do, however, have better things to do with my time.

You keep shifting the goal post whenever I'm about to execute a Laduma! You've brought the issue of bad service now, what is that got to do with what we are debating about?

 

[jontyB]

You keep shifting the goal post whenever I'm about to execute a Laduma! You've brought the issue of bad service now, what is that got to do with what we are debating about?

It's a point about [the lack of] professionalism.

 

[sungura2005]

I'm a black Kenyan software developer who offers help desk support and custom-made software to customers in Kenya, the United States, and any other country that wishes to trade with me. I placed a bid at Elance the US agency that matches buyers of services the world over with service providers the world over, but the buyer chose a bidder in India. I had the lowest bid ($500) while person who won unfairly bid $900. I have a portfolio of 9 products, all with free trial versions, while the person who won unfairly has no portfolio. I have 4 reviews from customers with an average rating of 5 (the highest possible) while person who won unfairly has only 1 rating of 4.7. Is that racism or what? For details of the project I'm talking about, please visit:



My Elance handle is sungura2005 while that of the person who won unfairly is aditya15.

While AA/BEE in South Africa is racism by blacks, it's a necessary evil to counter racism by non-blacks. That said, I'm not a beneficiary of AA/BEE since I'm a black Kenyan, not a black South African. However, I plan to use it in future to get lucrative SA government contracts by hiring SA blacks, especially the women. Happy new year to everyone.