'White professionals' numbers plummet'

UnUnOctium said:
Indeed, and lowering standards they are not. Which now brings us back to the start of the 'cyclic conversation' in that what I said was, government wants numbers, universities do not want to lower standards. And that's where my original post's sarcasm stems from. i.e. "give everyone degree, it's easy, if they have a degree, they are engineers who can do the work". Now obviously I'd hate it if universities were to lower standards (though it wouldn't directly affect me since I'm doing postgrad)
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I seriously don't understand what this 'lowering of standards mean'....can you please provide a definition, in particular, with reference to a tertiary institution such as the South African universities...

I'm am sure that you are well aware that it's not based on a 50% pass mark for a undergraduate module but the quality of publications in high impact scientific journals

UnUnOctium said:
but it sure as hell would peeve me off if I then had to explain what multiplication is instead of just differentiation.
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Ok, we did differentiation in Matric in the early 90s. Very few understood what the hell we were doing, but complianed a few years ago 'about standards dropping', even though the kids had to do a bit of integration in later years too. The very ones who were making big noise about stanards, were the idiots...that I can say from my experience. I was in a private school FULL of white kids and even though we were 48 kids in HG maths in std. 8, by the time we were in Matric, we were only 14 in the HG class. The standard grade class (filled at the time with mostly black students - well 9 in total) consisted of 15 students in std. 8 and in matric they had to have three SG classes for maths...LOL...!!
 
Voicy said:
Yep, when I started my Elec eng course we were 68 in the class. 6 months later we were down to 21. Eventually only 2 of us finished the course without failing a year.
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Well, I started in a class with 200+ students in Physics I. We were only 3 doing Physics III two years later...
 
the graduate said:
I seriously don't understand what this 'lowering of standards mean'....can you please provide a definition, in particular, with reference to a tertiary institution such as the South African universities...

I'm am sure that you are well aware that it's not based on a 50% pass mark for a undergraduate module but the quality of publications in high impact scientific journals

Ok, we did differentiation in Matric in the early 90s. Very few understood what the hell we were doing, but complianed a few years ago 'about standards dropping', even though the kids had to do a bit of integration in later years too. The very ones who were making big noise about stanards, were the idiots...that I can say from my experience. I was in a private school FULL of white kids and even though we were 48 kids in HG maths in std. 8, by the time we were in Matric, we were only 14 in the HG class. The standard grade class (filled at the time with mostly black students - well 9 in total) consisted of 15 students in std. 8 and in matric they had to have three SG classes for maths...LOL...!!
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Indeed but another aspect is that, at around 2nd year, the lecturers try to get their 50% passes/fails per subject with a nice variance. What I have noticed is how consistently they've had to 'dumb it down' so to speak. Also in their drive to restructure programs, they exclude (relevant) subjects which were deemed 'specialist' before and decide to leave them as a post-grad material.

Also, I didn't have the privilege of going to a private school, all we did was differentiation in matric (2005). Luckily I caught quickly onto the new work (such as integration). What I do know for certain is the things that I got taught in matric do not seem to be showing much with the current draw.
 
Voicy said:
They're trying to change that now apparently. I actually need to compile my forms so I can get my PrEng accreditation sometime next year.
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Yeah, but the governments efforts in all areas show that there's breathing space yet since trying to do something and actually doing it are worlds apart
 
Irony is I get good education,I studied at Stellenbosch cheaper than anyone in first world, take my skills and come earn a better salary than average in a first world country due to the simple fact that I know that I will never get to where I deserve in SA.Why are we loved overseas, cause they love south africans work ethic and think we smart compared to some.Now government subsidised university which I used,but I take my skills overseas.You really got to question the mentality of the people in the government.Surely they should either just be honest and not let whites go to university cause they know we are going to go overseas unless they get rid of AA.
Serious Question? Do Africans want things to fail cause by the decisions they make seem hell bent on acheiving that.
 
jambai said:
Why are we loved overseas, cause they love south africans work ethic and think we smart compared to some.
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That's changing. There are youngsters out there trying to make a quick buck ruining the reputation of sa professionals overseas. Still plenty of professionals coining it out there but you need experience & work ethic ;)
 
Racist governments/countries will never succeed. The quicker your government learns the better! Who would have thought 20 years ago, South Africa will swing "the other way" - this bad. Incidentally we had on my local German forum, a pretty heated discussion about South Africa and government enforced racism and I used this thread to prove my point. Thank You for that. The opening post is very powerful indeed. It might help this forum to note - Australia has (as of last year) become the second largest gold producer in the world (after Russia). South Africa, who was the leader, has slipped now to 3th position! Is still 1-st in Platinum though. (for how long is another question). I wonder where do all this new mining engineers (in Australia) come from? Further, Australia is now a net exporter of maize. They were "traditional" importers. The agriculture sector has improved substantially and no one knows exactly why. The Aus government try to score some political points but some think there is more to it. And lastly,very recently the Aus $ is almost 1:1 with the US $ ! ! ! Oh yeah, does anyone know what on earth boosted the Aus economy so much so they basically managed to avoid the world recession? I think I have a idea but I don't want to be banned from this interesting forum of yours. And no, I am not Australian nor do I like them more then I like South Africans. Just couldn't help but notice this facts :D
 
Grhardt said:
South Africa, who was the leader, has slipped now to 3th position! Is still 1-st in Platinum though. (for how long is another question). I wonder where do all this new mining engineers (in Australia) come from? :D
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And it will continue to slip down because Gold, like any other in-situ reserves deplete with time.
 
Well, one can say that for other countries too. For example, in USA gold has been mined for longer then South Africa, yet they are still some of the top producers. Honestly, I think in South Africa the mining woes go even dipper then the mining shafts :D Same goes for farming/agriculture. And Nationalization hasn't even begun yet (The ruling party will have a meeting to decide on new policies and who knows - Malema, SACP and COSATU are getting stronger and stronger !) Is ironic, the people who the Africans despise most contribute on a per Capita basis much more to the South African economy then the average African, yet they are discriminated against . . . What a dilemma :(
 
Grhardt said:
Well, one can say that for other countries too. For example, in USA gold has been mined for longer then South Africa, yet they are still some of the top producers. Honestly, I think in South Africa the mining woes go even dipper then the mining shafts :D
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Not really, depth is the major disadvantage with Gold mining in SA. Extraction ratio decreases with depth exponentially. This is not the case with Canada, USA, Australia and China who mine at relative much shallow levels. BTW..SA still has the world richest Gold but its locked in pillars.

In mid 90's we started a research programme called Deepmine because we knew about the challenges and production limitations of mining at depth. It is really not surprising that SA is now falling behind on Gold production.
 
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Agreed. However the government should try to get engineers and not chase them away with "affirmative action/racist" policies (delete the word which is against your cause). Don't you think so? I have visited South Africa on a number of occasions (SWC last time) and the future does not look promising :( (if you are a South African you probably know that already) In just about any international survey they are loosing places all over. And, while most foreign visitors know crime as one of South Africa's problems, the locals (the better informed ones), know of other sores beginning to show (like corruption, nepotism, racist policies etc) I sincerely hope, they somehow manage to sort out their problems, however the last 20 years of "Mandela freedom" sadly point to another direction. A more "African" direction . . . Nationalization MUST take place ! They have no choice. The ANC will go down the drain and anarchy will follow if they don't give "power" to the people. I just hope it won't happen Malema/Mugabe/COSATU style.
*Do to sensitive issues discussed, I would like to close my site of the debate with the word - Peace!
 
Grhardt said:
Agreed. However the government should try to get engineers and not chase them away with "affirmative action/racist" policies (delete the word which is against your cause). Don't you think so? I have visited South Africa on a number of occasions (SWC last time) and the future does not look promising :(
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I agree with some of your comments.

I have many colleagues who have left SA for Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Most of them have have high level skills in mining and have sited crime as the problem. I have 4 close friends who emigrated from SA. At work, in my department alone, I know 3 people who have been affected by crime and left the country. There is another dude who has been robbed three times now, fears for his children and is in a process of leaving the country.

On the issue of affirmative action, I disagree with your comments and I rather we leave the discussion for another thread.

On the issue of Nationalization, I am against it because government do not have the technical and managerial skills to manage complex operations like mining.
 
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dlk001 said:
I agree with some of your comments.

I have many colleagues who have left SA for Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Most of them have have high level skills in mining and have sited crime as the problem. I have 4 close friends who emigrated from SA. At work, in my department alone, I know 3 people who have been affected by crime and left the country. There is another dude who has been robbed three times now, fears for his children and is in a process of leaving the country.

On the issue of affirmative action, I disagree with your comments and I rather we leave the discussion for another thread.

On the issue of Nationalization, I am against it because government do not have the technical and managerial skills to manage complex operations like mining.
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The govt is very well skilled at Mining... 'Thats Mine,hmm thats nice - MINE, thats Mine' </sarcasm>
 
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