White students 'overlooked'

[NewsFlash]

So as and eg: KPMG was giving a bursaries to give away, you got a 95% average and the black kid got a 95% average he studied in his cold shack with a candle and you had all the comforts in the world.

Who should get the bursury?

The best candidate if all else is equal fool!

 

[NewsFlash]

That was said in tongue and cheek. Like I said before people have admitted to receiving matric certificates and exemptions during apartheid. This means that they should never have been in university in the first place. Whether you choose to accept this fact is your problem. SA universities are overated, I speak from experience. I am an engineer from UCT (Apparently a top SA (oops, I mean African) university). I did not work my arse off

I have a feeling someone is talking BS, need our stamp of approval or just bragging rights?

 

[cdi]

That was said in tongue and cheek. Like I said before people have admitted to receiving matric certificates and exemptions during apartheid. This means that they should never have been in university in the first place. Whether you choose to accept this fact is your problem. SA universities are overated, I speak from experience. I am an engineer from UCT (Apparently a top SA (oops, I mean African) university). I did not work my arse off

You did not need to work your arse off because the standard now is so low
All you need to know is how to do a African handshake

 

[Bageloo]

I am from a reasonably middle class to well-off white family, attended a public school, enjoyed an arguably better than standard high school education and am now going to university. I achieved above 90% for each one of my school subjects in matric as well as a 106% average, yet I do not qualify for even one single bursary, except for a R7 000 generic discount given to all students who achieved 95% or more.

Practically all of the other bursaries available requires one to be black. Now, I am wondering, why my non-white fellow matriculants, who live in the same area, attended the same school as I and have as good an income in their households, but do not achieve as well as I do, should be awarded these bursaries over me? Is it just me, or is that just plain racial discrimination against me because I am white?

You make a compelling argument, however, you're most probably referring to one or two black kids in your well-off neighbourhood. For that one black kid in your example think of a 10000 more from the shacks/townships that will have to compete against you.

 

[lewstherin]

I am from a reasonably middle class to well-off white family, attended a public school, enjoyed an arguably better than standard high school education and am now going to university. I achieved above 90% for each one of my school subjects in matric as well as a 106% average, yet I do not qualify for even one single bursary, except for a R7 000 generic discount given to all students who achieved 95% or more.

Practically all of the other bursaries available requires one to be black. Now, I am wondering, why my non-white fellow matriculants, who live in the same area, attended the same school as I and have as good an income in their households, but do not achieve as well as I do, should be awarded these bursaries over me? Is it just me, or is that just plain racial discrimination against me because I am white?

Your story tracks pretty close to mine. I came second in the grade at a well known Durban high school. My folks weren't terribly wealthy, and my high schooling was actually financed via a merit bursary.
I applied for over 90 different university bursaries, all rejected. Every one of my black peers - who scored between 5 and 20 places below me - got bursaries (despite their parents being loaded).
I put myself through varsity by picking up part-time work and via a student loan.

That experience left a bitter taste in my mouth. When I starting seeing the beginnings of the same AA philosophy creeping in at work, it became clear that my kids would likely grow up under the same polarizing culture. I don't want my kids to continue paying for something even their father had no part of, and I also wanted them to grow up to view all people as equal.
So I moved to Australia.

Over here when a job advert mentions "Equal Opportunities" - they actually mean it! (This is what I mean)

 

[Sharkey]

And you passed with top honours?

I graduated with honors. I got a distinction for my thesis as well.
Who cares anyway, I really never learnt much. In the working world, I have found that a degree gives you no advantage at all.

As for CDI Grow up, Grow a brain. You must be the least intelligent person I know. Your posts are beyond pathetic. Talking a bout peoples parents. I assure you that the story is true but I do not want to mention names.

 

[JK8]

The best candidate if all else is equal fool!

 

[NewsFlash]

For that one black kid in your example think of a 10000 more from the shacks/townships that will have to compete against you.

That's the Governments, if you can call them that, fault not ours! They should stop defrauding the country and waste money and resources and also stop fueling racism and this country will bloom., but "sight" this is Africa!

 

[Bageloo]

That's the Governments, if you can call them that, fault not ours! They should stop defrauding the country and waste money and resources and also stop fueling racism and this country will bloom., but "sight" this is Africa!

Which government, this one or that one? hehe!

 

[Edwe]

You are partially correct but this is only first generation blacks that are coming through now. The white students have parents and grand parents etc who all have degrees. ( this makes them 2nd or 3rd generations)

Do you really think all white students have parents with degrees? It simply isn't true.

You may not agree but I am sure that the percentage of students irrespective of colour, who are from a second generation perform better than those from the first generation.

Why would that be the case? What possible advantages could my parents' degrees provide to my education? I attended a regular public school, like most black students my age. My school educated me - not my parents.

Now how many blacks are from second generation. AA IS needed and like I say when the numbers start evening out, then they can adopt your policy. Unfortunately, you have to be realistic and your method just wont work at this point in time.

What real-life factors prevent institutions from assessing ability and not just race?

You know this reminds me of a lecturer at my university. At a meeting a white lecturer said that its been 10 years now, this AA needs to stop. The black lecturer then asked the white one how many people in his family has degrees. He replied with 20 something. The black lecturer laughs and says " I am the only one in my family".

It doesn't really prove anything, in my opinion. You could also assume that the lecturer was from a poor community or simply from a non-scholarly family.

In the words of Gayton McKenzie, a black man (google him if you haven't heard of him before), "We've had enough AA in this country. It's sooooooo ten years ago."

 

[cdi]

A prayer Please God if I wakeup tomorrow let me be be white

amen

 

[DavidJ]

Without AA, this imbalance would never be addressed and the haves will remain on top while the have-nots will remain at the bottom.

I don't think that's true at all, it would just take longer for the ratio of that white/black imbalance to become more balanced. Without AA, the economy would be bigger (in absolute size) and more powerful and be creating more jobs. Now given that the white unemployment rate was very low around the time apartheid ended, it's pretty much necessarily the case that the increasing demand for jobs would naturally start to be fulfilled by increasing numbers of blacks - slower than with AA, but it would happen - in fact I saw it starting to happen already even in the dying years of apartheid. Meanwhile, with a more productive economy, far more taxes could be extracted to build more infrastructure for the previously disadvantaged such as roads and more/better schools and even new universities, thereby providing good education to a new generation of blacks and providing them with higher-level skills, which in turn makes them even more attractive when it comes to jobs and makes them integral to the economy, and so on. (Of course that aspect is happening anyway, just slower.)

What AA does, in effect, is trade (overall number of) jobs for 'balance' - we have a smaller economy that provides fewer jobs and creates less overall wealth for society, but the white/black balance *within* that smaller economy is better than it would be without AA. I hope even AA proponents understand that it IS a trade-off, a compromise.

Nobody can realistically deny that there aren't AA employees who are really hard workers. But on the other side of the coin, nobody can realistically deny that there don't exist AA employees who are just token appointments draining cash and not working. Anecdotal 'evidence' aside, the real questions in that regard are how economically productive are AA employees *in aggregate*, which nobody knows, and whether or not it is steadily improving, and if so, how fast.

The problem with AA is that it's racism. There are certainly seemingly legitimate questions as to whether or not racism can truly be "redressed" by applying more racism. Is there really such a thing as "good" racism? I see many amongst the new upcoming generation of whites who perceive themselves (both rightly and wrongly in different cases) to be victims of racism and dislike blacks as a result. Fomenting hate is usually unhealthy for societies in the long term. Is anyone actually studying these trends? What's the SAn race relations institute up to anyway these days? They're supposed to study things like this. (Of course the 'flip side' of a greater black/white imbalance in a more productive economy would probably be increased resentment amongst blacks, but perhaps the lower unemployment rate amongst blacks that we'd probably have would help counter this, etc.)

 

[Edwe]

You make a compelling argument, however, you're most probably referring to one or two black kids in your well-off neighbourhood. For that one black kid in your example think of a 10000 more from the shacks/townships that will have to compete against you.

Your point is understood and appreciated, but it does not make up for the way in which AA is applied. I admit that, because of Apartheid, the most disadvantaged people in our country are non-whites, but that does not mean that there are no disadvantaged white students and no affluent black students.

I feel AA is a racist practice and should be replaced with a national plan to uplift disadvantaged people of all races, rather than uplifting black people from all backgrounds based solely on their skin colour.

Now that would be true equality.

 

[RichardP]

One thing the Black people of South Africa didnt see during the Aparteid era.... as an English speaking white person, it was allmost impossible to get job as a public servant. (City Councils, Telkom, SAPO, Eskom, Transnet, SABC etc etc)

AA and BEE are all racist practices.

 

[Bageloo]

...
What AA does, in effect, is trade (overall number of) jobs for 'balance' - we have a smaller economy that provides fewer jobs and creates less overall wealth for society, ...

Do you think that AA is responsible for the smaller economy? Care to elaborate..?

Nobody can realistically deny that there aren't AA employees who are really hard workers. But on the other side of the coin, nobody can realistically deny that there don't exist AA employees who are just token appointments draining cash and not working. Anecdotal 'evidence' aside, the real questions in that regard are how economically productive are AA employees *in aggregate*, which nobody knows, and whether or not it is steadily improving, and if so, how fast...

Most companies I have worked for use perfomance apraisals/contracts. As far as I know there are no AA employees, only AA candidates. Perfomance contracts are standard and everyone is judged according to the targets set out in their contract.

... Is there really such a thing as "good" racism? I see many amongst the new upcoming generation of whites who perceive themselves (both rightly and wrongly in different cases) to be victims of racism and dislike blacks as a result...

are you implying that the previous generation of whites liked blacks? ho ho! careful what you say?

 

[Bageloo]

I feel AA is a racist practice and should be replaced with a national plan to uplift disadvantaged people of all races, rather than uplifting black people from all backgrounds based solely on their skin colour.

Now that would be true equality.

AA uplifts also women and disabled people of all races. I'm sure that most white women are ignorant of that fact.

 

[d0b33]

The poll is funny though
2 voted yes,
Angelo and...?

 

[jontyB]

AA uplifts also women and disabled people of all races. I'm sure that most white women are ignorant of that fact.

Nice try, but wrong. AA is separate from EE.

 

[JK8]

The poll is funny though
2 voted yes,
Angelo and...?

Im number 3, being disadvantaged is not about money. Its about not being able to attend tertiary institutions even if money was no problem. Being disadvantaged was not being able to go to a restuarant, not being able to swim at the nice big pools in Warmbaths, not being able to take those cool double decker busses in Tswane...

They/We were still disadvantaged!

 

[Bageloo]

Nice try, but wrong. AA is separate from EE.

No you are wrong. AA measures are covered in section III of the Emplyment Equity Act. "designated groups" means black people, women and people with disabilities;