White students 'overlooked'

[icyrus]

Im number 3, being disadvantaged is not about money. Its about not being able to attend tertiary institutions even if money was no problem. Being disadvantaged was not being able to go to a restuarant, not being able to swim at the nice big pools in Warmbaths, not being able to take those cool double decker busses in Tswane...

They/We were still disadvantaged!

But the poll is not about whether you were, but whether you are?

 

[jontyB]

No you are wrong. AA measures are covered in section III of the Emplyment Equity Act. "designated groups" means black people, women and people with disabilities;

EE scores separate points. Employing a white woman, for example, scores less points than scoring a black male. A black woman scores the highest points. Two separate points are awarded for Gender and Race.

*sigh*. You're one of those I will argue everything type humans aren't you? How sad.

In any case, it matters little: The race part is racist, end of discussion.

 

[Bageloo]

EE scores separate points. Employing a white woman, for example, scores less points than scoring a black male. A black woman scores the highest points. Two separate points are awarded for Gender and Race...

I never disputed the scoring used in EE. You said AA was separate from EE (wrong).

*sigh*. You're one of those I will argue everything type humans aren't you? How sad..

No, just this one point.

In any case, it matters little: The race part is racist, end of discussion.

and the gender part is sexist, but I don't see many men complaining about it!

 

[JK8]

But the poll is not about whether you were, but whether you are?

You sure bout that? Its very vague.

 

[jontyB]

I never disputed the scoring used in EE. You said AA was separate from EE (wrong).

It is bundled together in an act but treated separately in practice, agreed?

No, just this one point.

No, most of your posts are argumentative.

and the gender part is sexist, but I don't see many men complaining about it!

This discussion was about Affirmative Action as a racist policy, which it is. The EE discussion (which you brought into the equation to try and prove some point - of which you failed) is a separate one. In any case, white men are generally accepting of women in the work place (women have been in the work place for many years)... Many black men, however, are notoriously against this. There are several very high profile white women in charge of very big companies in this country, and the men working for them do not have a problem with them running the show.

In any case, there are several men who will not move on with the times, including many at the top in COSATU and several other political organisations who are very much against a potential next woman president.

 

[icyrus]

You sure bout that? Its very vague.

Should black kids from wealthier families be considered disadvantaged?

be Pronunciation[bee; unstressed bee, bi]
Pronunciation verb and auxiliary verb, present singular 1st person

Perhaps it could have been worded better...

 

[Bageloo]

It is bundled together in an act but treated separately in practice, agreed?

You are not making sense at all. The EE Act is legislation making provisions for the practice of affirmation action. You implement affirmative action measures to comply with the act.

Affirmative Action as a racist policy, which it is. The EE discussion (which you brought into the equation to try and prove some point - of which you failed) is a separate one.

Again, there's only one issue under discussion - Affirmative Action/Employment Equity

In any case, white men are generally accepting of women in the work place (women have been in the work place for many years)... Many black men, however, are notoriously against this. There are several very high profile white women in charge of very big companies in this country, and the men working for them do not have a problem with them running the show.

I'm not sure of the validity of your claims. women wouldn't have formed part of the "designated group". The NATS never had a woman president or prime minister, and you say white men are accepting of women. dream on!

In any case, there are several men who will not move on with the times, including many at the top in COSATU and several other political organisations who are very much against a potential next woman president.

Missed the point. Cosatu have their candidate already earmarked - a man -Zuma. Any woman with presidential ambitions will have to wait her turn, nothing sexist about that. There is no woman candidate credible enough, at least not in the eyes of Cosatu.

 

[jontyB]

You are not making sense at all. The EE Act is legislation making provisions for the practice of affirmation action. You implement affirmative action measures to comply with the act.

Now, for the very last time. It is under one act, but applied differently and separately in practice. Applied S E P A R A T E L Y. It is not part of this discussion. It wasn't part of this discussion or topic and should (and is being) treated as a separate issue. AA, in terms of this and all the other discussions we have had till now is on racial equity. Now that we have re-qualified our actual discussion, leave the attempted gender issue out of it for another day. Capisce?

I'm not sure of the validity of your claims. women wouldn't have formed part of the "designated group"

What group are you talking about now? Why is it in quotes? I never mention designated group anywhere. Qualify your argument, or stop trying to argue please.

Missed the point. Cosatu have their candidate already earmarked - a man -Zuma. Any woman with presidential ambitions will have to wait her turn nothing sexist. There is no woman candidate credible enough, at least not in the eyes of Cosatu.

No, many have made special mention that a women should never be president. Lest we forget the placards bearing this particular assertion during various congregations over the past year or so. I would like to discuss this under a separate issue, away from AA as this is not part of the original topic. AA (from a racist political connotation should not include this particular discussion).

 

[Bageloo]

Now, for the very last time. It is under one act, but applied differently and separately in practice. Applied S E P A R A T E L Y. It is not part of this discussion. It wasn't part of this discussion or topic and should (and is being) treated as a separate issue. AA, in terms of this and all the other discussions we have had till now is on racial equity. Now that we have re-qualified our actual discussion, leave the attempted gender issue out of it for another day. Capisce?

JontyB, I will continue to argue as long as I disagree with you. There is one Employment Equity Act. This act identifies designated groups (blacks, women, people with disabilities). It's kind of hard to leave out the gender issue whilst the subject is affirmative action. My question is, why do you pick on the race part and not the gender part or the disability part(assuming you are an abled man). Isn't that motivated by racism perhaps?

 

[xtermin8or]

ha, bageloo, you're touching a sensitive nerve there, JontyB doesn't like being called a racist, sort of like the way Marie Antoinette thought of herself as a fair and just ruler

 

[Xarog]

From 2001 till 2005. I met my former manager at Unisa PTA campus last year. He's studying for his BSc! Someone must have tightened the screws around his big belly!

Well, I'll freely admit that Telkom was never big on hiring qualified staff.

It was no coincidence, the position was advertised as AA. Go to careerjunction.co.za and have a look at the AA advertisments. Look at the requirements and let me know if they differ from the non AA adverts

Sorry, I misread.

After an interview with them, I wished them good luck finding a black woman who meets all those requirements. They told me they are not in a hurry.

Sounds like it's a job they don't really need.

In such cases who is to blame, the AA candidate or the stupid employer...?

No, it's the AA policies that are to blame, obviously. The 'stupid' employer has his hands tied.

If any black person can get a job regardess of whether they can do it or not, then why are so many of them unemployed?

Because quite simply there aren't enough jobs in the country. If some bizarre act of God suddenly caused the whites to dissappear entirely, there would still be *many* unemployed black people.

 

[nocilah]

My current position is AA. The minimum requirements were simple, A Bsc, CISSP/ CISM/CISA and five years experience in information security management. I met all of the requirements. But if this was not an AA position, a white guy with 15-20 years experience would have got the job. There were virtually no ppl of colour in this field a dacade ago. Even today there is still very few black women qualified and experienced in this area. SABC has been looking for one for the past six months. According to your theory they can just grab any black female with no experience/qualifications. I'm sorry to say, but it does not work that way!

well its good to hear this kind of perspective.

 

[nocilah]

I'm sure that most white women are ignorant of that fact.

you would be surprised how many are not.

 

[Skeptik]

well its good to hear this kind of perspective.

Yes, though it sounds like an admission to me.

Who would want to be in a job that they arguably don't deserve.

 

[jontyB]

ha, bageloo, you're touching a sensitive nerve there, JontyB doesn't like being called a racist, sort of like the way Marie Antoinette thought of herself as a fair and just ruler

Oh look everyone. The homophobic cancer has re-emerged after his gravy train holiday.

And I am not a racist. So take your *** elsewhere *****.

 

[nocilah]

YWho would want to be in a job that they arguably don't deserve.

why do you say the job is not deserved?

 

[jontyB]

JontyB, I will continue to argue as long as I disagree with you. There is one Employment Equity Act. This act identifies designated groups (blacks, women, people with disabilities). It's kind of hard to leave out the gender issue whilst the subject is affirmative action. My question is, why do you pick on the race part and not the gender part or the disability part(assuming you are an abled man). Isn't that motivated by racism perhaps?

*sigh*

The act is not being discussed here. AA is. We're not talking about gender equality, despite your countless attempts to drag it in to this discussion, we're talking about the racial aspect of AA.

 

[Syndyre]

This is why I have a big problem with AA in its current form. It is too cumbersome for any government on the planet to enforce fairly. As soon as a black family reach middle class they cannot possibly be considered disadvantaged anymore. Who in their right mind ever considered Tokyo Sexwale previously disadvantaged?!!? Who can still do it as things stand now?

Government should assist all the poor, not just the blacks. That would be the easiest way to help everybody. The black population is the largest and therefore would inevitably recieve the largest amount of support. Uplifting based on race is sick, twisted and wrong! The fact that nobody in government is speaking out against it is indicative of the kind of society we are living in. One where nobody speaks the truth because doing so might cost you your job and therefore your income...

1st rule when listening to anybody speaking proudly of the current regime of AA... CHECK IF THEY ARE MAKING A LIVING DOING SO!!!! If they do, then ignore them... If they don't continue ignoring them because then whoever is doing so is just plain stupid anyway...

Seconded!!!

 

[Syndyre]

*sigh* you do want to walk this road then don't you?

1. You went to school and received (almost free) a good education? How many other white kids were in your class? How many black kids were in your class?
2. Did your parents have a good job? Did they struggle finding a job because of their skin colour?
3. Did you have an issue getting into University or college? Even if your marks weren't top notch?
4. Were you able to go to any medical facility and receive top class service?
5. Were you allowed to go into any rest room?
6. Were you allowed to go to any beach that you decided to visit?
7. Were you subjected to curfews (not those imposed by your parents - those imposed by the Nats)

There's many more, and I am sure many can contribute to this... so get off your high horse mate. You were advantaged, deny it all you want.

What about those of us who spent most of their lives in the "new" SA and are still discriminated against because of our skin colour.

Yes I did receive a good education and good medical care but that was because I went to a private school and have a medical aid, both of which were accessible to any black person who could afford them.

 

[Syndyre]

SACS has burseries for disadvantaged individuals, so maybe he was one of those.

Either way he still didn't receive a "disadvantaged" education.