20 buses burn

Even if they had absolutely no alternative means to voice their discontent this would still be unacceptable.

There is no reason or justification possible for this sort of behavior.
 
IanC said:
You're right of course, however I did note that these were self destructive acts.

I also note that you didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again ... can you give me a course of action, that these people might take, that would be taken note of and acted upon?
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These people are world famous proponents of mass action. There are many non-violent ways to voice concerns, and it doesn't need to be a letter to the company. Resorting to violence is becoming far too much like second nature in this country, and it's fast spiraling out of control. Burning 20 buses is simply not acceptable. It doesn't matter how desperate you are - or how low your IQ is - everyone should have the moral fiber to understand the difference between right and wrong. And act as such. Period.
 
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IanC said:
No I do not. I do however also note that you offer no solutions.
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There are millions of solutions, most of which are already methods the masses have employed before. Mass action contributed to setting these people free. Mass action has many forms, all of which are effective. Resorting to violence is never acceptable. No matter how desperate anyone is. Just even hinting that it's understandable is a dangerous precedent and one that should never be entertained.
 
kingmonty said:
There are millions of solutions, most of which are already methods the masses have employed before. Mass action contributed to setting these people free. Mass action has many forms, all of which are effective. Resorting to violence is never acceptable. No matter how desperate anyone is. Just even hinting that it's understandable is a dangerous precedent and one that should never be entertained.
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I agree. As I said, picket your MP; and don't elect him next time. They complain about the situation but when they have the opportunity to change it it becomes a whole different story.
 
Poor commuters in this country have been shafted by the government for a long time. However this is unjustifiable, each Putco bus costs roughly R 800 000, multiply that by 20 and you have R 16 million worth of damage. That is a lot of money to just burn in a fit of anger.

Let us not forget that this is also a criminal act. South Africa has many legal forms of protest and is also a democracy. Thus you can elect public representatives that do your bidding. Burning down your transport is like burning down your schools, utterly self-defeating.
 
timgaul said:
When I've worked in Britain the train or bus occasionally just doesn't pitch up. The trains are perpetually late. But you don't see this anarchy in the UK.
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I too worked in the UK for many years, and you're right ... the trains are perpetually late. Let's compare apples with apples however, the UK actually has alternative methods of transport, SA does not.

timgaul said:
It is hardly the job of this forum to provide and alternative to there solution - it is the job of the government to provide reasonable public transport.
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You're right, but this is the issue, isn't it? There is NO ALTERNATIVE. These people cannot vote with either their pockets or their feet, they have no where else to go. The people have strikes, memoranda are handed in ... government does SFA.

timgaul said:
This situation has ultimately arisen as a result of government greed, corruption and ineptitude.
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Agreed.

timgaul said:
If you want a solution those are the people that these rioters should be addressing - NOT the private bus company doing its best in a difficult situation.
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So just as long as a company is "doing its best", everything's OK?? Sorry I don't buy that one, I expect a certain level of service ... if I don't get it I'm going to cut up rough.

timgaul said:
Go picket your MP; if that doesn't work, elect a new official. Unfortunately this country is blinded by the ANC as to how government for the people works. There is your solution.
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I agree most people in this country are blinded by ANC BS. Just to be clear are you suggesting that the solution is to nationalize public transport?
 
IanC said:
I agree most people in this country are blinded by ANC BS. Just to be clear are you suggesting that the solution is to nationalize public transport?
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No, but perhaps a little more subsidisation and regulation of the industry to ensure a company is doing its best.

But with AA/BEE it becomes a difficult situation to provide a company that can provide that level of public service.

It is also the government's responsibility to provide alternate/expansive solutions to current public transport.

IanC said:
I too worked in the UK for many years, and you're right ... the trains are perpetually late. Let's compare apples with apples however, the UK actually has alternative methods of transport, SA does not.
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Not where I was. One train, one hour. That or take a £40 cab ride. Sitting around the station for 3 hours was something you had to get used to - didn't see me torching the blasted thing though.
 
kingmonty said:
There are millions of solutions, most of which are already methods the masses have employed before. Mass action contributed to setting these people free. Mass action has many forms, all of which are effective. Resorting to violence is never acceptable. No matter how desperate anyone is. Just even hinting that it's understandable is a dangerous precedent and one that should never be entertained.
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I fail to see the form of mass action that would be effective in this regard, since you are pre-supposing an effective consumer action organisation.
 
IanC said:
I fail to see the form of mass action that would be effective in this regard, since you are pre-supposing an effective consumer action organisation.
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So in effect you want them to do something by doing nothing. If you receive poor service you need to form an effective campaign if you expect changes. You can't have something for nothing, metaphorically speaking. By no one taking action, nothing will be done. Unfortunately this country is either too lazy or has given up.
 
IanC said:
How would you know where I worked?
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Er... what? I'm talking about where I was.

"the UK actually has alternative methods of transport"

I assume that wasn't somewhere that has no alternative methods of transport.
 
IanC said:
That's as near to nationalisation as dammit is to swearing.
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Well then you offer a solution.

EDIT: industry regulation and subsidisation is a much better alternative than our current situation; it was never going to be the perfect solution, but its also not roving, torch-wielding mobs either.
 
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IanC said:
Can anyone tell me what other recourse these people had?

Would Putco have paid any attention to a delegation sent to present a memorandum?
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Perhaps, if the memorandum was enthusiastically delivered with a strategically situated panga or bullet :D ... THAT might wake up some sleeping bureaucrat gravy-trainers :)

I was initially going to trash your comment until it occurred to me that you may actually be onto a deeper issue here .. how CAN (or should) citizens hold a failing government to account, when formal accountability structures are also failing? When is insurrection justified? Ideally you just want to send a pointed message to government officials: 'Do your job, or else' - but taking it out on buses is pointless, because the officials don't care about them. Their own hides have to be on the line.

I'm not talking about destroying government. You only need to make examples of a few, and if you've made the message clear that you're serious, the rest should wake up a bit. Maybe I just lack the imagination to come up with more peaceful solutions when all legitimate venues seem helpless?
 
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timgaul said:
So in effect you want them to do something by doing nothing. If you receive poor service you need to form an effective campaign if you expect changes. You can't have something for nothing, metaphorically speaking. By no one taking action, nothing will be done. Unfortunately this country is either too lazy or has given up.
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No I don't want them to do nothing, I would like them to be able to vote with their feet. My proposal is competition, I would like to see 2 or 3 bus companies competing for the business. If one screws up there's 1 or 2 others to take up the slack (and the cash). The possibility of all of them screwing up at the same time is remote ... this is the point (kingmonty take note) that I would have a problem with violence i.e. when people have a REAL choice, not some hypothetical version that we've cooked up online.
 
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