IanC
Expert Member
Thankfully SA will never know what the Dark Ages really meant, which as far as history is concerned is roughly 500 years of spotty content.
I still maintain however that we need to learn the basics well and then we can branch out.
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20 buses burn
- Thread starter EtienneK
- Start date
Thankfully SA will never know what the Dark Ages really meant, which as far as history is concerned is roughly 500 years of spotty content.
I still maintain however that we need to learn the basics well and then we can branch out.
IanC
Expert Member
I go on the fishing boats (strong stomach required).
First stop is Longhope in Orkney ... I call it Last Hope
IanC
Expert Member
Are you saying that 1 or 2 buses would have been OK?
Why not? The government believes we compete on every level - and that we're the start of humanity. And honestly, given the mob violence in Britain's past, things are not so different as you may make out... The point you're missing here is that the people do have a choice: strike at the heart of the matter. It's what they've done before - it was the basis of their struggle. But now they resort to violence and do not even consider the alternatives. You said in your very first post here: "Would Putco have paid any attention to a delegation sent to present a memorandum?"
Why wouldn't they? There's no evidence to suggest that they wouldn't have taken the commuter's concerns to heart. Did they even try? No, they simply took the law into their own hands and resorted to mob justice.
In other posts you suggest there is no alternative for these people. That's not entirely true. There is a very lively robust and quite effective taxi service on every major bus route in South Africa. A route where there are 20 buses is likely a major route to begin with. So, given your quest for alternatives to violence we have:
- use alternative transport and hit the bus companies in a free market kind of way - this will spur them to up their game.
- Organise mass action and hand over a memorandum of grievances to the head honchos of Putco.
- Escalate your grievances with your trade union representative. They love to organise legal strikes, so why not follow the processes that are available to you?
The bottom line remains: these people resorted to violent and criminal means to justify their cause. The mere fact that you're defending their actions (albeit not condoning it) gives credence to their actions - in fact, on some basis it can actually be seen as a justification. The fact of the matter is, however, that they didn't try the non-violent methods, and as such intentionally chose to commit a serious felony that does actually carry a prison term in South African law.
No amount of frustration or desperation gives anyone the right to commit a crime - no matter how they try and justify it by pointing to their circumstances. Fortunately the Law agrees with me.
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This is not an inherent truth, even if the law "agrees with you", comforting though that may seem to one's viewpoint, the "law" is by far not absolute in ethical guidance. On the contrary, I can easily spit out counter-examples ... for example, would you have said of German Jews who attempted to defend themselves by fighting back during WWII that "No amount of frustration or desperation gives any [Jew] the right to commit a crime - no matter how they try and justify it by pointing to their circumstances"? This may be an extreme example, but it still demonstrates a particular point that holds (bear with me). I could think of hundreds more examples, including many from apartheid.
A government serves and must be accountable to its people, right? I.e. it must "do its job", agreed? Now, when the government fails to serve, AND the usual formal/civil accountability mechanisms also fail, AND it is by definition against the government's own laws to hold it accountable in any other way, then the people are in effect rendered helpless to hold their own government accountable, right? But think about what that means ... what is a government if it's failing and totally unaccountable? Government isn't an alpha-ape dictatorial authority whose every whim we must just accept as obedient subjects, it's a servant of the people. Clearly accountability is a requirement, but honestly, what mechanisms remain for holding the government accountable when all legal mechanisms are useless? This is one reason the US has the Second Amendment.
I definitely do NOT condone destroying buses, that is worse than useless, it's counterproductive. The buses aren't the cause of the failure. Useless government officials are. Officials who remain safe as ever in their mansions and luxury 4x4s collecting bonuses no matter how many buses are burnt. Shouldn't a problem be dealt with at its root cause.
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There's a difference between self preservation (as per your Nazi example and likely your countless Apartheid examples) and violent crime with the intention to destroy property out of utter frustration. The former has its place in law, as does the latter, and there is a clear differentiation both civilly and criminally in this regard - most notably our constitution was designed to make this differentiation. Perhaps one should consider the basis of this particular incident, as it is what I am basing my argument around. The fact is, several laws were broken out of frustration. Self preservation (or even self defense) is not even a possible consideration. Nor is the persecution of a people (once again, ruling out self preservation). The law is clearly defined in this instance: arson is a crime. Violent mass action that is disruptive to fellow citizens is a crime.
Furthermore, the law is continually adapted so that it is inline with the constitution in this country. To this end, any laws that offered any ambiguity that may have allowed the persecution of any people and conversely allowed retaliation by violent means of such retaliation has been suitably changed to strictly disallow such possibility to pass legal muster.
In any society, when violence is overlooked because of circumstances, then someone somewhere is being violently oppressed. One would have thought we've moved on from such oppression. The question is: do the people really believe this?
Now, your second part of your argument refers: the failing government structures leading to this breakdown in society.
I agree with you. It is the task of a government to ensure the social fabric is in tact and so doing ensure the moral fiber of its citizens are never under question or strain. However, when the government fails to live up to its moral obligations and ultimately refuses to acknowledge accountability for this failure, we sit with a problem where the very people who entrusted this task to government accepts this failure as par for the course - and actually deem such behaviour that resulted in the failure as morally acceptable, thereby further allowing the moral decay to further erode societal behaviour. The real problem is not that there is no accountability, nor that zero accountability effectively breeds a lawless society. The real problem is that (by design I might add) community leaders refuse to acknowledge that the top leadership can actually be wrong - as this would be seen as a sign of utter disrespect to the party and particularly its leaders.
Great leaders have always been willing to put their head on a block, and admit when things are a failure because they screwed up.
Edit: Be that as it may, the people who torched these buses are not freedom fighters. They are not leaders. And they are not holding anyone accountable. They are in all likelihood cowards. And as frustrated as they may be, they are criminals.
I agree with you. It is the task of a government to ensure the social fabric is in tact and so doing ensure the moral fiber of its citizens are never under question or strain. However, when the government fails to live up to its moral obligations and ultimately refuses to acknowledge accountability for this failure, we sit with a problem where the very people who entrusted this task to government accepts this failure as par for the course - and actually deem such behaviour that resulted in the failure as morally acceptable, thereby further allowing the moral decay to further erode societal behaviour. The real problem is not that there is no accountability, nor that zero accountability effectively breeds a lawless society. The real problem is that (by design I might add) community leaders refuse to acknowledge that the top leadership can actually be wrong - as this would be seen as a sign of utter disrespect to the party and particularly its leaders.
Great leaders have always been willing to put their head on a block, and admit when things are a failure because they screwed up.
Edit: Be that as it may, the people who torched these buses are not freedom fighters. They are not leaders. And they are not holding anyone accountable. They are in all likelihood cowards. And as frustrated as they may be, they are criminals.
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IanC
Expert Member
That's debatable
.
The UK had Mob violence ... but it was a while ago
Personally I don't think they will
I think the possibility of losing your job qualfies.
There is also no evidence to counter you statement,
I do not pretend to know about our "taxi" service
I have just rubbished the non-violent methods above.
I think that given no other option then violence is the only option and possibly the only language the company will understand.
Irrelevant. It's what they believe.
There are still often incidents of mob violence in the UK. In fact, there is a severe problem with youth mobs wreaking havoc on societies across Britain today.
You can't back this up with fact. Perhaps Luf can offer more insight as to whether Putco would prefer to deal with issues in a civilised manner or lose buses in bon fires.
South African law makes it extraordinarily difficult to fire someone. no company is going to take on a union when their people are unable to get to work due to transport issues. It happens all the time - just last week we were minus a good portion of our workforce thanks to the transport problem. No one was fired. Not even a single warning was dished out. It's probably fair to say you're not actually in the know of such matters based on such a generalised statement.
Then my point stands.
Do you even live in this country? The taxi industry is by far the biggest commuter of people in the country. Period.
No, you have not. You just stated a few personal opinions of which very few seem to languish in any fact.
No. No. No. No. No. Violence is NEVER an option. It is NEVER acceptable. It is never a recourse. South Africans should get the idea that violence is an option out of their minds once and for all.
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I still don't think you can ever justify burning 20 buses like that, causing tens of millions of rands worth of damage. These people are criminals and should be arrested.
Kim_Webchick
Expert Member
I do understand their anger, but doing such a thing like this how is it going t make it any better now there are 20 less buses for them to use!!!!
It turns out they torched 22 actually (according to news reports I heard this morning on the way to work). And a car apparently belonging to a Putco staff member.
Here is a quote that in mind confirms the lawlessness and lack of respect for the property of others.
The Spar has nothing to do with Putco, yet it was threatened, hence my opinion that this was unjustified. Just a side note, people who perpetrate this violence should keep in mind that when the state does eventually respond to these acts it will respond brutally. So no complaints please.
Full article:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20080811115423212C394560
The Spar has nothing to do with Putco, yet it was threatened, hence my opinion that this was unjustified. Just a side note, people who perpetrate this violence should keep in mind that when the state does eventually respond to these acts it will respond brutally. So no complaints please.
Full article:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20080811115423212C394560
semiautomatix
Honorary Master
Yup, suddenly you realise that this was just a mob. Nothing more, nothing less. They were acting out with no actual foresight as to their objectives. Had the done anything to the Spar then there would have been absolutely no sympathy. This country is stuck somewhere 300 years ago with an "off with her head" mentality.
Office Furniture
Well-Known Member
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Its very sad story indeed but resorting to this was really uncalled for.
semiautomatix
Honorary Master
I disagree. In your example the Nazi government/parliament ceased to be an elected body. In a country where government is for the people, of the people and by the people the laws made are those that your dully chosen and elected officials decided to be in the best interests of the majority. Unfortunately, as you point out, this system can become lost as result of this exact same principle. But then, and only then, when the government no long represents the people have we a right to protest the law.
That being said, this country is teetering on the brink. "The quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail." However, when that day does come (as it indeed has in Zimbabwe) we should no let those marginalised folk suffer but bring down the entire system before it is too late.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
That is the methodology in Africa...
"Burn first... never ask questions"
There must be no such thing as the haves and have-nots...
nobody must have anything.
semiautomatix
Honorary Master
That is the methodology in Africa...
"Burn first... never ask questions"
There must be no such thing as the haves and have-nots...
nobody must have anything.
I believe there was a quote by Cuban lady regarding Fidel Castro, she said something along the lines of "he wanted everyone to be equal, but instead of lifting everyone up he brought everyone down to make them so." In effect to make everyone equal, Castro took everything away from everybody.
Scary stuff! A Cuban I used to work with explained to me that after 10 years of service he could apply for a car - if that application was successful he might be given a 10 year old, second hand car. Yes, communism works!
bonobo_slr
Well-Known Member
No. I am just saying after 1 or 2 buses you have made your point. After 20 you are just burning **** for the sake of it...
Wow - i didnt think this would of created such a heated debate.
Issurance claims are being processed - The issuers we deal with where all sweating and on the brink of 'vomiting' with nerves in the meeting - it is one of our biggest claims in over 10years.
Transport along the route has been restored with more busses and a letter of apology to those who where affected has been issued.
Criminal charges have been brought on by the Company and we have 15 people already.
We are working very closely with the Police in finding more.
Ticket officers have now been reopened and armed security are on site and on every Bus along the route.
Thanks all.
Issurance claims are being processed - The issuers we deal with where all sweating and on the brink of 'vomiting' with nerves in the meeting - it is one of our biggest claims in over 10years.
Transport along the route has been restored with more busses and a letter of apology to those who where affected has been issued.
Criminal charges have been brought on by the Company and we have 15 people already.
We are working very closely with the Police in finding more.
Ticket officers have now been reopened and armed security are on site and on every Bus along the route.
Thanks all.