Advice on Marriage and Relocation

Ancalagon said:
Software engineering manager at medium tech.
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That is incredible pay. I was exec level in South Africa (for a small company) and am moving back up to that in UK. £200k a year is a ton more than most senior managers / VP's I know of at very large companies.

Would be lying if I said I wasnt jealous.
I think with that kind of lateral move it really depends on future of your kids, education etc

Family / friends can play an important role in an easier marriage, especially with a kid, so that is something to consider
 
Ancalagon said:
Quick summary of options and then I'll stop writing:
Option A): Move to the USA. Great climate, double the income, retire early, big house, holidays all over the world, full time nanny. Would likely include investing in property in Poland and spending a few weeks there every year. Easy to do when earning dollars.
Option B): Move to Poland. Climate about the same, if not worse than England. Income takes a hit, but cost of living drops too. Probably a full time nanny, big house. Family nearby and not too far to my own European family. But we might have to live close to Warsaw so still 1-2 hours from her family meaning she can't just drop in every afternoon.
Option C): Stay in England. Climate sucks, natural beauty sucks, overcrowded. Income remains good, with a higher ceiling. Can't afford a full time nanny right now but she doesn't have to work either. Could buy a holiday home in Poland and spend a few weeks there over the summer, and have her family stay with us instead of the other way around.
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Sometimes people get fixated on one thing that they think will make them happy, and it's often the one thing that they miss the most at that time. In your wife's case, it's obviously family, and I think it will be difficult for her to move past that on her own.

My wife also suffers from anxiety and can also get super negative sometimes (like yours saying you should then never have married). She says it's just expressing frustration. That may be true, but it still sucks to hear it. Anyway, my wife lived in the UK for 18 months, and even though she wanted to emigrate to Aus, it has been pretty hard on her. Her job is good, we live close to her favourite family member, but sometimes we'll hit a speed bump and she says we should never have left SA. At least then we wouldn't have struggled with X. And we don't even have kids. If I brought her here and she was even the slightest bit reluctant to come, things may have turned out badly for us.

I suspect that if you move to the US, your wife won't be happy for a long time and that she will fixate on what she couldn't have - nearby family. What would be better for her if you move to the US?
She is unhappy staying in the UK, and it sounds like staying is the worst option of all 3.

Poland sounds like a crappy option for you. Does she know that she will have to live 2 hours away from family? I think you need to make sure she understands that you need to work, and you will need to be close to work. That will make the rest of Europe probably seem more attractive with the transport infrastructure. On the other hand, that still means you will need to learn a new language and not know anyone.

This is quite the problem you have here. Maybe couples therapy to help with perspectives and understanding the real reasons you both feel the way you do?
 
Did anyone ask for pics of the wife ? Polish woman can be very beautiful. And full of schit.
As you get older you'll discover you don't want ANY schit anymore. You also deserve a happy life.
 
Ancalagon said:
Thought about it, still worried about safety, politics, future etc. We're going there end of this year so will be interesting to see. Kids will all have 3 passports (British, Polish and SA) so at least nobody will be stuck.
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Money plus three passports means you can live like a king in SA. There are areas that are frankly safer than your average UK town, certain schools way above UK average, and you can simply buy your way into them. Easier than locating yourself in Poland for sure. Personally this aspect would be a big deal for me - in Poland you will be socially dependent on your wife and inlaws. You will have no clue how to evaluate e.g. a school. You will never have native language proficiency and they will always be able to crack a joke that goes over your head. Perhaps this is one reason you like the U.S. as a more neutral place where at least you're both lost?

Anyway perhaps SA is moot - though you didn't mention her PoV my guess is she would rank SA around the same as Yemen, Somalia, or Syria in her list of places to live?

But maybe your family would be a positive factor for her?

Post an update here after your trip...
 
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@Ancalagon - My 5c to add:

If the US is to be considered it goes without saying that dependent on the category of visa you enter the US with will matter greatly for both you and your dependents. It will dictate how quickly you can attain permanent residence or citizenship especially if it is a non-immigrant visa. As you mentioned stability and permanence this is a considerable toll for many. As much as there is some predictability and process there can be just as much unpredictability which could add some strain.

I would strongly advise spending some time in the US especially as the experience will vary drastically from place to place.

On a side note have you considered Europe outside of Poland but close to it and the UK that might be a better compromise and more meet your requirements?
 
rh1 said:
My 5cents:

1: Disagree on the happy wife, happy life. More like, husband must always compromise leading to very unhappy men in relationships.
2. My focus is my daughter happiness and wellbeing and that she is equipped to face the world once I am no longer around
3. My wife decisions have mainly been from emotional basis. In the beginning I gave in her to whims, but it always left the family worse off. See point 2, since I became a father, I make decisions, that wife was not always happy with, but after time she realised was the right one because I made decisions based on considering a lot of things and removing the emotions from the decisions.
4. I am not responsible for my wife happiness. We both had crappy childhoods, however, she as an adult must take responsibility for her mental wellbeing. I will always provide support in whatever form she needs. This is a difficult one, because no ones want to see a love one unhappy. But if it is a consistent issue, your wife needs to accept some accountability and responsibility for working on her issues. Moving to Poland wont magically resolve her issues.
5. Money is important and not important. Will you have enough? Will you be able to give your daughter the start she needs in life? If yes, it is not important, if no it is important.
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It's a good way of thinking about it, but I guess it still leaves the fundamental problem of what is best for the future of my family and not just me?

What's best for me in isolation is moving to the USA, earning a lot of money, enjoying good weather and open spaces, and retiring early. But is that best for my family? Will I be able to say to my wife, in 10 years time, "See? I was right, USA was the best option."

I'm not sure that I will be able to say that. I'm more sure that Poland is the right option than the USA, and the reason for this is that she might be so unhappy that we might not make it to 10 years. Money, a big house and a nanny won't solve the fundamental problem of her being unhappy without family or close friends around. She feels lonely. While I could survive in the USA long enough to build up a circle of friends, I'm not sure she can.

cguy said:
My take: Plan to move to the US for at least 5 years.

Why:

- If you decide to stay after 5 years, great. If not, you can leave for Poland with €1m of savings.
- You will know the language after 5 years - you need to study it for 5 years while in the USA - even if you don’t go to Poland permanently, it will help you speak to your wife, her family and the locals when you visit. IMO, going to Poland without knowing the language is a huge risk in itself.
- The US is full of expats including entire suburbs of cities that are almost entirely Polish. Great for learning the language and finding community.
- Moving again sucks, but it’s a lot easier with money.
- You may also find work in the USA that allows you to work remotely from Poland at very high rates if/when you leave.
- You won’t be asking yourself “what if”

Caution:
- Deferred comp may mean that if you leave after 5 years, you lose out on ~2 years of income, so make sure you get a deal that makes sense for you.
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I'd love this but my wife would never go for it, because:
* It is a planned temporary move - she only wants to make a permanent move
* We'd be living in the USA at the time when the children are the youngest which makes it extra hard.

I think this could work if I was 28 and not 38. We could wait until the children (if we have more than one) are old enough that they are easier to look after and then move to the States. But if we do this now, it means moving to the States at the age of 48. Not sure this is a workable age for me to be moving countries. My wife is a lot younger than me - about a decade younger than me.
 
gregmcc said:
This is a bit of a red flag. You are the one working right. Why is she telling you how much you need to earn?
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It isn't what you think it is. She's saying it's pointless to go if the planned huge salary doesn't work out. Like, one of the attractions of the USA is that I can make a lot of money, so if that turns out to not be true, then why go?

I think I phrased her wording badly.

PS people of my skillset earn from $400k to $800k per year, and if I make director level, it goes much higher.

gregmcc said:
So she is happy to live in SA then and not Poland? I'm confused. Thought it was Poland or nothing?

One of you is going to have to make a sacrifice and going to have to live with what if's for the rest of your life. I guarantee this is the first thing that will be brought up in a argument.

What if you move to Poland and she is not happy?
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Essentially it's all about family. She'd be happy to live in any country where either one of us has a significant support network. That means SA or Poland.

She might not be happy in Poland, true. It isn't all roses. One of the problems is that I might have to locate us close to Warsaw for work, so that I can work for Google etc. If I do that, her dream of "popping over to see family" in the afternoon is dead, it's too far. Like so close but so far.
 
Barbarian Conan said:
Sometimes people get fixated on one thing that they think will make them happy, and it's often the one thing that they miss the most at that time. In your wife's case, it's obviously family, and I think it will be difficult for her to move past that on her own.

My wife also suffers from anxiety and can also get super negative sometimes (like yours saying you should then never have married). She says it's just expressing frustration. That may be true, but it still sucks to hear it. Anyway, my wife lived in the UK for 18 months, and even though she wanted to emigrate to Aus, it has been pretty hard on her. Her job is good, we live close to her favourite family member, but sometimes we'll hit a speed bump and she says we should never have left SA. At least then we wouldn't have struggled with X. And we don't even have kids. If I brought her here and she was even the slightest bit reluctant to come, things may have turned out badly for us.

I suspect that if you move to the US, your wife won't be happy for a long time and that she will fixate on what she couldn't have - nearby family. What would be better for her if you move to the US?
She is unhappy staying in the UK, and it sounds like staying is the worst option of all 3.

Poland sounds like a crappy option for you. Does she know that she will have to live 2 hours away from family? I think you need to make sure she understands that you need to work, and you will need to be close to work. That will make the rest of Europe probably seem more attractive with the transport infrastructure. On the other hand, that still means you will need to learn a new language and not know anyone.

This is quite the problem you have here. Maybe couples therapy to help with perspectives and understanding the real reasons you both feel the way you do?
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Thanks for sharing this, your wife sounds similar to mine. Mine is generally pessimistic whereas I'm an optimist. She also suffers from anxiety, and also does not want to do anything to treat her anxiety, which frustrates the hell out of me. I think it comes down to, acknowledging that you have mental health struggles is showing weakness, which she does not want to do. Anyway, it frustrates me because I think this could be so much easier if she treated her mental health, but she refuses to. I mean, she only saw a therapist because her postnatal depression became pretty effing dark.

I think if we move to Poland, I'll also have to decide where to locate us, which is another challenge. If it is anything but the small town where she grew up, it means a 2 hour drive to see family, which means her dreams of popping over in the afternoon are unworkable.

Yeah, that's her worry and my worry. If we move to Warsaw or Krakow, not only will there be better work opportunities for me, but there will also be English speaking expats that I could become friends with. Everyone sees Krakow is a beautiful city.

The language issue is a big issue, but with these kind of international moves, I find it best to think long term. Like, I can barely speak Polish now, but that won't be such a problem in 5 years if I work towards it.

The same applies to moving to the USA incidentally - we don't know anyone know, but I think we could develop good friend networks in 5 years. But yes, you're right, she'd be unhappy for a long time and would fixate on what is missing instead of what we have.
 
quovadis said:
@Ancalagon - My 5c to add:

If the US is to be considered it goes without saying that dependent on the category of visa you enter the US with will matter greatly for both you and your dependents. It will dictate how quickly you can attain permanent residence or citizenship especially if it is a non-immigrant visa. As you mentioned stability and permanence this is a considerable toll for many. As much as there is some predictability and process there can be just as much unpredictability which could add some strain.

I would strongly advise spending some time in the US especially as the experience will vary drastically from place to place.

On a side note have you considered Europe outside of Poland but close to it and the UK that might be a better compromise and more meet your requirements?
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Thanks, we planned on a fact finding trip to the USA next year, but now that I'm doubting whether the USA will work at all, I'm not sure it makes sense to go at all. Mostly because its frikken expensive!

In terms of other European countries, my wife is not keen because she doesn't want our children (and us) to have to learn a third language. She says there is no point, we might as well stay in the UK. It's a pity because I think I'd love the climate in Portugal. Spain is lovely, always have a good time when I've gone there.
 
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Tomtomtom said:
Money plus three passports means you can live like a king in SA. There are areas that are frankly safer than your average UK town, certain schools way above UK average, and you can simply buy your way into them. Easier than locating yourself in Poland for sure. Personally this aspect would be a big deal for me - in Poland you will be socially dependent on your wife and inlaws. You will have no clue how to evaluate e.g. a school. You will never have native language proficiency and they will always be able to crack a joke that goes over your head. Perhaps this is one reason you like the U.S. as a more neutral place where at least you're both lost?

Anyway perhaps SA is moot - though you didn't mention her PoV my guess is she would rank SA around the same as Yemen, Somalia, or Syria in her list of places to live?

But maybe your family would be a positive factor for her?

Post an update here after your trip...
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Good points, but kinda similar problems on the family front. My family is located in Johannesburg (and surrounds) and Mpumalanga. I don't think Gauteng is that safe compared to the WC.

So if we wanted to optimize for lifestyle and safety, it would be the WC, but then we're still a flight away from family. Also my older brother, who currently lives in SA, is probably emigrating himself.

I don't think she considers SA that bad. I mean she is worried about safety etc. Myself, I'm more worried about what will happen when our kids get older. We're unfortunately both pale, so they will struggle to get into university and struggle to get good jobs. So, they'd probably have to emigrate. What's the point if our children will always have to emigrate anyway?

But yes 3 passports is awesome!
 
Ancalagon said:
It's a good way of thinking about it, but I guess it still leaves the fundamental problem of what is best for the future of my family and not just me?

What's best for me in isolation is moving to the USA, earning a lot of money, enjoying good weather and open spaces, and retiring early. But is that best for my family? Will I be able to say to my wife, in 10 years time, "See? I was right, USA was the best option."

I'm not sure that I will be able to say that. I'm more sure that Poland is the right option than the USA, and the reason for this is that she might be so unhappy that we might not make it to 10 years. Money, a big house and a nanny won't solve the fundamental problem of her being unhappy without family or close friends around. She feels lonely. While I could survive in the USA long enough to build up a circle of friends, I'm not sure she can.
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You cannot be the only one to compromise. A relationship has to be a give and take. It cannot just be one person compromising all the time.

When it was just my wife and I, I did compromise most of the time, since as a guy, I did not mind. When my daughter arrived, I realised that I needed to step up as a man and make decisions in the best interest of the family even if it meant vetoing my wife choices.

This is what I am alluding to. It feels like you putting your wife happiness over everything else, without considering the true costs and or unintended consequences of taking such a stance. You may end up bitter and angry or it may be the best thing ever.

There will always be what ifs when it comes to major decisions, being man is about accepting the consequences of decisions/actions.

Some posts above gave good insights.

If I was in your shoes, I would take my wife to USA for a holiday, and locate the polish commjnities beforehand. Those areas become part of the sight seeing phase of the trip. This will allow her to view USA as a potential relocation for the family.

I would also go on an extended trip to Poland, i.e. where would we stay and work, schools, entertainment? Can you see yourself 30+ plus years in that area etc.
 
Ancalagon said:
Good points, but kinda similar problems on the family front. My family is located in Johannesburg (and surrounds) and Mpumalanga. I don't think Gauteng is that safe compared to the WC.

So if we wanted to optimize for lifestyle and safety, it would be the WC, but then we're still a flight away from family. Also my older brother, who currently lives in SA, is probably emigrating himself.

I don't think she considers SA that bad. I mean she is worried about safety etc. Myself, I'm more worried about what will happen when our kids get older. We're unfortunately both pale, so they will struggle to get into university and struggle to get good jobs. So, they'd probably have to emigrate. What's the point if our children will always have to emigrate anyway?

But yes 3 passports is awesome!
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Rubbish, whoever told you that is talking absolute ****.
 
Ancalagon said:
What's the point if our children will always have to emigrate anyway?
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It's super cheap, so what you save goes towards your (even earlier) retirement.

Also, I might have a funny opinion on this, but I wonder if it's not a pro to come in knowing they might have to leave. Puts the fire under you to get them through a world-class / international school programme in SA (yet probably less than the cost of an average education in UK/PL) - and then they are qualified to emigrate *anywhere* vs possibly getting dragged into a more parochial situation in PL.
 
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