Affirmative Action here forever

[Syndyre]

If this is the case, who would want to live in a country that does not constitutionally protect it's minorities in the workplace?

Surely this sets up a hostile business environment that would become increasingly untenable for minorities in the future SA!

It sounds really messed up. Doesn't it?

Not many people do, which explains the number of people leaving.

 

[Syndyre]

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.

No matter who suffers in the process?

 

[BobbyMac]

The white folk in South Africa were not born with skills or some sort of God-given intellect that made them superior.

Correct. BUT: As far as Africa vs the rest of the world, Africa has evolved extremely slowly. I often hear about all the things that were created and discovered in Africa - but before the 'colonialists' (and I'm using the word colonialists instead of whites because I don't fall into that particular demographic to begin with) came to Africa, the bottom line is simple: Africa was very very far behind the rest of the world. To this day many African people still live a tribal way of life. Whether you like to admit it or not, the arrival of the 'colonialists' kickstarted Africa into evolving, and whether you like it or not, the mere fact that you're reading this is thanks to the arrival of the 'colonialists'. So knock them all you want, but the day these 'colonialists' you all hate so much do decide to leave, then Africa is ****ed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[marine1]

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.

Is that what they tell you at the ANC meeting you go to?

 

[RichardP]

South African buisness should be like dicipline for kids... and everyone knows that negative re-enforcement does not work!

You can reward for good deeds... or you can punish for bad deeds. I think companies should get rewarded and recognised for the AA compliance in Tax breaks etc etc. -NOT- penalised, shunned and picked on for not being AA.

Companies are cash machines. If they have to get a few cheap 'window-dressers' for the books, they WILL. They dont care about skills advancement or what colour the people are, they care about How much money they can make USING the AA card.
5 Cheap un-educated 'window-dressers' count alot more in the eyes of AA than 1 well educated well deserved fellow that earned his job.

Is this what AA is about?

 

[dlk001]

No matter who suffers in the process?

If AA is proven to be unjust, unfair and resulting in suffering of people, then it should be challenged through the Human Rights channels.

 

[dlk001]

Companies are cash machines. If they have to get a few cheap 'window-dressers' for the books, they WILL. They dont care about skills advancement or what colour the people are, they care about How much money they can make USING the AA card.
5 Cheap un-educated 'window-dressers' count alot more in the eyes of AA than 1 well educated well deserved fellow that earned his job.

Interesting point RichardP. But, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot because that model of "window-dressing" is a short term "solution" for a long term disaster. If I was a leader, i'd consider long-term ramifications seriously because sustainability is important in business.

 

[Syndyre]

If AA is proven to be unjust, unfair and resulting in suffering of people, then it should be challenged through the Human Rights channels.

Its enshrined in the constitution, the only one I know of that deems some discrimination to be fair.

 

[RichardP]

Interesting point RichardP. But, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot because that model of "window-dressing" is a short term "solution" for a long term disaster. If I was a leader, i'd consider long-term ramifications seriously because sustainability is important in business.

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

 

[Arko2]

Skills and 400 Years. The Names Schumacher,Ackermann, Bäcker, Müller, and so on, many more, are refering to skills dating back far longer then 400 Years.
My guess is it must be in the Genes

 

[dlk001]

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

I find this point very interesting RichardP because my previous company boss did exactly that. In the short-term (3yrs), we were the best division in the CSIR (9 divisions) that met transformation targets and best bottom line. We got the most government funding versus other divisions. Later, the fruits of window-dressing paid off and exposed the seriousness of the problem.

At the company I work for, we do a lot of research/consultancy work for DME. Our company work-force is predominantly white but we get contracts on bases of a scorecard. Engineers are hard to find regardless of color. The only way is to take a risk and develop them in house. Some will stay and other will leave for greener pastures (locally and overseas).

Its one thing to get the contract, but work needs to be done. If it can't be done, we lose credibility. Therefore, window-dressing is just out of question.
We try to fulfill other aspects of the scorecard and focus on building the skills rather than window-dress the skills. We need graduate engineers to do the work. They are in short supply (regardless of color). We cannot hire anything less than a degreed person with experience or fresh from varsity with capacity to learn. As far as AA, we show our structured programs to develop the skills. Fortunately, our clients (incl DME) understand the problem of lack of skills and appreciate our efforts in training and meeting other scorecard requirements.

Window-dressing doesn't serve a good purpose for anyone (client, company and employees) in the long run.

 

[brixton tower]

So fix the past 400 years with another 400 years of the same (just with the races reversed)...yeah that's bright.
My whole argument is that clearly a better solution is to educate rather than litigate.

If you follow the news government was trying to be nice but a majority of employers in the private sector refused to play nice. So now we sit with affirmative action policies legislated into law.

Any rational employer will take the best person for the job when given the option; skin colour/cultural background would not even come into it. The few employers that persisted with hiring less qualified people based on race would go bankrupt eventually.

Read the above comment. So are you saying is that this country can't function without YT?

So if the government poured all their energy into creating a new generation of skilled workers (through education subsidies, new colleges etc), blacks would naturally get more jobs because they'd have the skills to compete on an equal footing.

Ever heard of the skills levy?

lol, you must have quite an inferiority complex to utter that...especially since I've never hinted at anything of the sort.

Ok, the humour starts here. No, I don't have any inferiority complex.

The governments mentioned are importing skills...not white skills as you mentioned. All of these governments rightly realise that the important factor is whether the people coming in can do the job or not...they could care less about your skin colour or background. Unfortunately the SA government doesn't have the same attitude...it seems that in SA a poorly skilled black person has more value than a highly skilled white/indian/coloured person...and thus the mass exodus of skills will continue.
When given a option of more money, less discrimination and a safer life, anyone would give that a second look.

Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.

Substantiation?
A skilled middle class requires skills. It also requires enough jobs that pay well enough. Both of these are dwindling commodities in the new SA thanks largely to government policies.

Forcing employers to make their workforce representitive of South Africa's population?

All the ANC has suceeded in doing is creating a small black middle class of questionable skill level, at the expense of the greater majority that are left uneducated and unemployed.

So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's? If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.

Oh man, you really like the strong stuff. Nice use of the favorite "racist" line - I never saw that coming I find that when someone resorts to using racism as an argument, they've already lost.

Ever lived in South Africa? Why are you bringing up retarded points when we both know the history of this country

Any well organised, well skilled and decently managed company knows how to do growth forecasting and planning.
A fast growing economy, and the resultant increase in electricity demand doesn't just happen - it takes years to get going and the signs are clear.

I agree with you. We might as well call in YT to save our skins

Keep those candles close my friend - you're gonna need them.

Wouldn't you just love that?

 

[Tanarri]

Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.




So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's? If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.

It is estimated from information from Australian authorities that there are approximately 150 000 South African emigrants from the last 10-13 years living in Australia alone.

Let's add up popular destinations of New Zealand, England and the USA amongst others. Not quite normal compared to most countries and even the government admits it.

Maybe it has a lot to do with ambition. They see that you can get lots of money by sleeping and eating doughnuts (Ivy)(the communications minister gets informed by her friends about price changes in the communications sector - nothing wrong with the apparently), do nothing at all (maybe? Paris) or go on oversea trips all the time (guess who). Or what about examples of Zuma, Yengeni...

All the skills, but no ambition is like a like a candle under a bucket. A pity it may be our last hope from slipping back into dark Africa.

 

[Hogrod]

I'm going to explain to you about my experience of AA. I was offered a .Net Developer position job at Mweb, only later to be turned down the job at Mweb by the HR manager who said it was because I was not black. They did not have an alternative candidate to fill the roll, yet I was still denied the position. That to me is racism, I was very upset because I was discriminated for a job I was more than qualified for, based on the colour of my skin.

If we look at areas such as Eskom and government hospitals, there are a shortage of skills because those with skills have left or lost their posts due to AA. Otherwise known as the brain drain. Now Eskom are crying out for skilled people who have experience to come back from the UK or Australia to help train the new staff. People should be appreciated by their potential, skills and experience to fulfil a particular roll. It should not be based on the colour of their skin. If we are to do this correctly then companies should have a responsibility to train their candidates and not fill positions just to fulfill government required ratios. It may take another 100 years to equalise the issues created by the past but this is not the right way to do it. You can't have AA without the support it needs.

 

[Skeptik]

Correct. BUT: As far as Africa vs the rest of the world, Africa has evolved extremely slowly. I often hear about all the things that were created and discovered in Africa - but before the 'colonialists' (and I'm using the word colonialists instead of whites because I don't fall into that particular demographic to begin with) came to Africa, the bottom line is simple: Africa was very very far behind the rest of the world. To this day many African people still live a tribal way of life. Whether you like to admit it or not, the arrival of the 'colonialists' kickstarted Africa into evolving, and whether you like it or not, the mere fact that you're reading this is thanks to the arrival of the 'colonialists'. So knock them all you want, but the day these 'colonialists' you all hate so much do decide to leave, then Africa is ****ed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

Nail on the head.
Africa owes a huge amount to European immigrants.

Also this 400 year thing quoted by brixton tower is not logical. It also seems to have increased from the previous "350 year" quote. Apartheid is not 400 years old.

In fact if we go back 400 years, we get 1607.

I don't recall many white people being around much in 1607. I know some British sailors were here around 1640 talking to "Harry the Strandlooper" - a Khoi-San individual - teaching him English. There was a settlement at the Cape by the Dutch East India Company from 1652. Hardly a colony even. But then there were no Xhosa tribes in the country at that time.

I won't bore you with more history, but lets get our facts straight.

I'm going to explain to you about my experience of AA. I was offered a .Net Developer position job at Mweb, only later to be turned down the job at Mweb by the HR manager who said it was because I was not black. They did not have an alternative candidate to fill the roll, yet I was still denied the position. That to me is racism, I was very upset because I was discriminated for a job I was more than qualified for, based on the colour of my skin.

If we look at areas such as Eskom and government hospitals, there are a shortage of skills because those with skills have left or lost their posts due to AA. Otherwise known as the brain drain. Now Eskom are crying out for skilled people who have experience to come back from the UK or Australia to help train the new staff. People should be appreciated by their potential, skills and experience to fulfil a particular roll. It should not be based on the colour of their skin. If we are to do this correctly then companies should have a responsibility to train their candidates and not fill positions just to fulfill government required ratios. It may take another 100 years to equalise the issues created by the past but this is not the right way to do it. You can't have AA without the support it needs.

Sorry to hear about you experience of the new Apartheid. What saddens me more is that you won't get much sympathy from government. They now say this sort of thing will be intensified. I get the feeling that white people are unwanted, unless they pay taxes or train blacks.

 

[dlk001]

You can't have AA without the support it needs.

Very true. It sounds like the company you applied for are digging their graves. It is stupid to window-dress "AA" by hiring less skill, previously disadvantaged or by reserving that post. It seems some companies lack leadership thinking.

 

[Hogrod]

The job I was denied was also not advertised as an AA position, the interviewers were also not aware that it was one. The HR manager for Mweb based in Jo'burg after I was offered (nothing signed yet) cancelled Mweb managers decision in Cape Town to tell me that the position is AA.

 

[BobbyMac]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

 

[dlk001]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

True.

 

[Hogrod]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

This was 2 years ago, the thought really never occurred.
Ultimately I didn't want to burn my bridges, nor do I fully understand the law or have money to pay for lawyers. I am surprised though there have not been more court cases based on this policy.