Affirmative Action here forever

[lord_spaceman]

I'm white. I'm young and I know I have a plethora of skills that SA needs, particularly in the IT Industry. If there ever comes a day that skin colour is picked over my skills, then bye bye SA, I'm out of here. Then government can take their AA **** and **** off.

 

[Roo!]

I haven’t got a problem with AA per say, if a PDI can do the same job as me and as well as me then fine have the job. What I do have a problem with is that there appears to be a leaning towards the idea that any PDI will be good enough for any position. This is simply not true.

There are actually three (3) areas that need to be in existence for a person to become a “professional” in a specific field of work. Firstly the person needs education, secondly the person needs experience and thirdly (and most importantly) the person needs the aptitude for the job.

The first item needs to be sorted out in the very beginning of the individual’s life, through parental guidance, schooling and formal training. This is where a country’s educational and social policies need to truly be working. Without a good foundation the entire process of becoming a contributing individual will fall flat on its face.

The second is where AA comes in, in that it is supposed to give those with little to no experience (for some discriminatory reason) the ability to gain this experience and thus become a productive member of society. This is a give and take exercise that requires security for the giver. An individual can not be expected to help the downtrodden if in the long run this act of helping will leave them in a place far worse than had they not helped at all. It has to be a two way street.

The third is where all the wheels of AA train fall off. If a person simply doesn’t have the aptitude for a specific profession no amount of education and nurturing will produce a productive member of society. This person would, under normal circumstances, simple fade away (either through retrenchment or through resignation). However, if it is entrenched in law that this individual is required to be there, then the environment in which this individual is placed will wither and die.

This best explained through an example:

A company hires a PDI and places this person in the care of a senior individual. It becomes clear to the senior that this person not only lacks experience but also lacks any fundamental ability for this profession. Since there is no way for this person to be gotten rid of, the senior now has no choice but to carry the workload of the junior individual as well as his own. Pretty soon the senior has had enough and resigns, leaving the workload to any senior staff member left or to the junior that can’t do it, not because he wasn’t given the tools to do so but because the person just doesn’t have the aptitude to do it.

The situation then just carries on getting worse and worse because either you have senior staff carrying a workload far larger than they can handle or you have a group of junior staff members that can’t do the work. In the end the result is the same, no work gets down and things fall to pieces. This is just one case; now imagine a entire country filled with individuals that were placed in positions for which they just don’t have the aptitude. There would be a total halt to the inner-workings of said country.

I am not saying, nor am I implying, that every PDI placed would not have the aptitude for the profession in which they are placed. What I am saying is that if AA is handled in a rash and rushed fashion, with a total disregard for the aptitude of the individuals then we are asking for serious trouble; and if a law is in place to support this type of haphazard style of placement then there is something seriously wrong with the law makers and the way they govern their country!!!

 

[marine1]

I'm white. I'm young and I know I have a plethora of skills that SA needs, particularly in the IT Industry. If there ever comes a day that skin colour is picked over my skills, then bye bye SA, I'm out of here. Then government can take their AA **** and **** off.

Whjat do you mean "IF there ever comes a day"? That day has come and is now law.

 

[lord_spaceman]

Meaning; if there is ever a situation I am faced with.

 

[dlk001]

There are actually three (3) areas that need to be in existence for a person to become a “professional” in a specific field of work. Firstly the person needs education, secondly the person needs experience and thirdly (and most importantly) the person needs the aptitude for the job.

A good point and very true, these are core fundamentals. It takes time to develop a "professional".

This best explained through an example:

A company hires a PDI and places this person in the care of a senior individual. It becomes clear to the senior that this person not only lacks experience but also lacks any fundamental ability for this profession.

This is where the problem starts. Why did HR/company hire PDI who lacks the relevant skill for the profession? As you are correctly pointing, it does not benefit anyone in the end. You are right, there is a need for GVT to rethink the AA model because despite of the intentions being clear, there is a growing negative perception due to the way its implemented. Also, skills transfer from senior to junior is part of a full time job which should be incorporated into performance areas. A few times, I found that I have to look after a junior person, yet, perform 110% of my other duties. It is ludicrous and I complain.

 

[IanC]

Meaning; if there is ever a situation I am faced with.

Best you dust your passport off then, if:

Trevor Manuel
AND
Membathisi Mdladlane

get their way, which they will no doubt do.

 

[Skeptik]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

Surely it's only binding if you accept the offer - and within a reasonable time.

 

[lewstherin]

If you follow the news government was trying to be nice but a majority of employers in the private sector refused to play nice. So now we sit with affirmative action policies legislated into law.

I'd love you to provide some hard evidence of this - somehow your word just doesn't cut it. Back statements like that with fact m8.

Read the above comment. So are you saying is that this country can't function without YT?

Although I didn't say that, I would gander that if every minority race left SA, the country would be fairly screwed.

Ever heard of the skills levy?

Would be nice to see where that money actually got spent. One of the many problems with the ANC is that they are quick to collect cash, but slow to spend it on anything substantial in the education/skills advancement sphere. My brother is a plumber, he has yet to get a chance to do his trade test because the plumbing SITA has scrapped the existing tests and has not finished creating a new one - this is after 4 years!

Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/eco...px?Nav=ns&lvl2=econ&ArticleID=1518-25_2003186
That link says it all. Of course there are prospering whites that will never leave. Just because you see a few whites in BMWs doesn't mean no one's leaving.

So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's?

There was plenty of goodwill from the white populace in the early 90s, particularly among the younger generation that grew up knowing apartheid to be wrong and shameful...not so much goodwill now after 10+ years of reverse discrimination.

If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.

I'm not going to debate this point because there aren't the stats to prove anything either way.
However I would point to the empirical evidence of rapidly declining service levels across many public sectors - telecoms, electricity, municipal services, and of course heaven forbid you have to deal with home affairs or the police.
That kind of widespread decline strangely coincides with the advent of AA laws...

Ever lived in South Africa? Why are you bringing up retarded points when we both know the history of this country

So you're saying because of the country's history, blacks are entitled to employ racist smears with no justification?

I agree with you. We might as well call in YT to save our skins

Well Eskom better call someone, because they're in a deep hole and have brought the country down with them.

 

[IamCanadian]

However I would point to the empirical evidence of rapidly declining service levels across many public sectors - telecoms, electricity, municipal services, and of course heaven forbid you have to deal with home affairs or the police.

I concur here ABSOLUTELY.

I would add one point. The declining service levels are also a result of many skilled people leaving SA. Take my brother for example. He also lives in Canada after leaving SA. He now owns his own company and even has a boerseun working for him along with half a dozen other people. He manufactures cranes etc. He is VERY good at what he does. SA lost him. I have a number of friends who have left. Also very skilled. SA doctors by the score here in Canada.

Canada is having a field day and licking her chops accepting people from SA. It's like a bonanza and they didn't even have to pay for training. The net result is an eroding system in SA. And for some to claim that the blackouts are a result of a growing and prosperous economy I would probably have to disagree there. In Alberta, we are in a monstrous boom where unemployment virtually non existent. You could leave a job one day and be hired in 24 hours.

The colour of your skin will have NOTHING to do with you getting hired here. If you have the skill and are breathing you can get hired.

Everywhere you look the government is doing it's part to pave the wave of prosperity. They gave us free money, they lowered out taxes, one city needed $300 million and they gave it. Everything works here and that is because the skills are here.

Oh sure we need every kind of worker but the truth is that many of those skilled people are in fact coming from SA. What happens to SA?

Madness!

My 80 year old mother has now lost her government pension from SA because of some bureaucratic idiot that does not know how to deal with a simple issue of identity.

Give us a break brixton tower. By the way have you ever actually been up the brixton tower? I have.

 

[neio]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

 

[IamCanadian]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

Agreed.

(looks like you are having a good time in South America?)

 

[neio]

Yeap, S America is nice, pity about the spanish thou

 

[IamCanadian]

Yeap, S America is nice, pity about the spanish thou

no hablo espanol.

 

[xtermin8or]

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

So the problem with AA is not Government's implementation of the system, but the attitude of White owned and/or controlled business. This is not the intention of AA, as the law clearly states, that preference be given to suitable qualified members of designated groups

 

[xtermin8or]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

It's being tried, a small backward town, called Orania

 

[dlk001]

So the problem with AA is not Government's implementation of the system, but the attitude of White owned and/or controlled business. This is not the intention of AA, as the law clearly states, that preference be given to suitable qualified members of designated groups

Its blatant silliness by the companies/agencies who are hiring people who lack the relevant skill for the profession, and use AA as an excuse. Like I said in another post, they are digging their own graves.

 

[xtermin8or]

Or is it an attempt, by white owned and controlled business, to continue the oppression of the black man, by employing unskilled people, so as to have their numbers up, then employing white people to do the actual work, who then gain further skills and experience

Or is white business afraid to employ suitably qualified black people, as they are afraid their own white staff will be shown up

 

[xtermin8or]

short anecdote to illustrate my point

My wife is a qualified IT Professional from a designated group, she worked for an IT company for more than three years, they then appointed a young Afrikaans white guy, straight out of Matric, to head the Department she was working in, planning to have him study while working in this management position, this happened last year ( my wife left the company and has taken up a position elsewhere ) funny thing is, the guy still phones my wife to find out how to do certain things

If AA is not forced on white business, things in this country will not change

 

[BobbyMac]

short anecdote to illustrate my point

My wife is a qualified IT Professional from a designated group, she worked for an IT company for more than three years, they then appointed a young Afrikaans white guy, straight out of Matric, to head the Department she was working in, planning to have him study while working in this management position, this happened last year ( my wife left the company and has taken up a position elsewhere ) funny thing is, the guy still phones my wife to find out how to do certain things

If AA is not forced on white business, things in this country will not change

Your personal experience is hardly scientific evidence. If it was admissible (which it isn't), then everyone that I know of who happens to be white and retrenched because of company policies to meet AA quotas nullifies your point entirely. And honestly, if you expect us to believe that a company employed a fresh matriculant as a manager above your wife based purely on skin colour, then you must really think we're all stupid. You really like talking k@k don't you?

 

[dlk001]

Or is it an attempt, by white owned and controlled business, to continue the oppression of the black man, by employing unskilled people, so as to have their numbers up, then employing white people to do the actual work, who then gain further skills and experience

Or is white business afraid to employ suitably qualified black people, as they are afraid their own white staff will be shown up

or, its someone like my previous boss. He preferred black candidates that are less qualified for the job because they were "loyal" and he had issues with the ones that were qualified for the job because they were "ambitious".

What ever the purpose is, its very silly. It does not benefit anyone at the end (company, AA employee, rest of staff and AA policy).