Affirmative Action here forever

[telkomsuig]

oh and one would expect JK8 to defend AA Indians are benefiting more from AA/BEE than any other race...

Not that I have a problem with it but just pointing out the reason for JK8's full support. How many unemployed Indians do you know? They generally have the skill and experience, and they fall into the AA category..

they really got a sweet deal less than 1% of the population yet they seem to make up 20 - 30% of most companies. If you follow the GVT's pie in the sky belief that all companies should exactly match the population they should long since have been excluded from BEE policies.

 

[McSack]

The Freedom Charter drawn up by the people in Kliptown in 1955, under the banner of the ANC, states that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people.

And then in the very next breath...

The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses.

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

Sweet Peter!!! I missed this first time round cos it was hidden in between all the quotes and other rhetoric.

Hell mate you sound exactly like some of those far right wing lunatics you like taking int p!ss out of so often!!

This is intelligent debate? No man... I can't accept that this is the way most blacks in this country feel or think!?!?!? Please refer to the very same freedom charter you were so keen to quote in the first place

 

[xtermin8or]

For all of you are too dumb to understand what I meant by the statements I made on violence, here is an explanation ( of course it would have been easier to refer you to the original post, but then again even with a re-read you probably still won't get it )

I said at the time of transformation, that is how things could have played out, and if it there could have been justification for it, after all the years of oppression, I said that ANC leaders could have justified violence by saying, our people are frustrated

That is not the way it happened, the transition was largely peaceful, my point was that this was due to the sober leadership of the liberation organisations and the spirit of Ubuntu of the African people, that was my point - but I now understand that if you don't understand that, then you will never understand an issue as complex as AA

 

[xtermin8or]

If it was denied why were they never prosecuted? Was prosecution even considered?

You are an absolute moron, did you even read the article ? - there were no attrocities committed or ordered by them specifically - so you can't get amnesty for something you did not do

 

[xtermin8or]

there we go.. this is one of the problems...serias, apartheid is dead and gone longtime already... its time to stop blaming apartheid for everything already.
sure, no denying that apartheid gave preference to whites, but that ended long before the official end of apartheid in '94, which is also 12 years ago already.

No, it's time you wake up and face facts, Apartheid may be dead, but it's effects are still being felt, and anyone who believes that the problems we have now can not be attributed to Apartheid is either naive or in denial about the role they or their parents played in this scourge

12 years, even 20 years is not enough to redress the imbalances created through Apartheid

 

[xtermin8or]

As for AA you don't seem to understand that it is there to protect MINORITY groups and NOT the majority! This is EXACTLY how it is in the rest of the world.

Once again your ignorance is showing, let us look at the definition of AA

Affirmative action is a policy or a program of taking positive steps to increase the representation of certain designated groups allegedly seeking to redress discrimination or bias through active measures, as in education and employment. It is usually achieved through the use of preferential treatment for those groups. Proponents of affirmative action generally advocate it either as a means to address past or present discrimination or to enhance racial, ethnic, gender, or other diversity.

I hope that sorts out your misconceptions, you should try to think for yourself, instead of believing everything your peers or elders tell you.

The ANC has, just like everything else, got it backwards and if they don't correct it, SA will continue going BACKWARDS just like Zimbabwe and the rest of Africa.

The National Party ran this country into the ground, the country was bankrupt, the ANC pulled it out of the doldrums, the economy is growing, and life has never been better for the majority of South Africans

At an average of over 4,5%, the rate of growth of our economy over the past two and half years has been at its highest since we attained our democracy in 1994. Investment in the economy, by both the public and private sectors has been increasing at about 11%, with overall public sector infrastructure spending increasing by an annual average of 15,8%. Today, fixed investment as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product – at about 18,4% – is at its highest since 1991.

The number of employed people has been increasing at about half-a-million a year in the past 3 years.

These are things you simply cannot deny

The problem with the ANC is that they are bad at propaganda

 

[CeeBee]

Originally Posted by xtermin8or
The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses.
Come on X, I can understand what u're saying, but have u reeeeelly thought about that? Its nice to sit & say, wow, if u get rid of all the whites it would be so great, but have u spent just a few seconds really thinking about the consequences? Taking white owned farms -> we've seen it so many times, the production will stop, and the farm becomes a worthless piece of land, taking over white businesses->seen that too, the business will go bust, somebody totally unrelated & without the skills, business experience can't just come and take over a business, so everybody employed by those businesses will lose their jobs, the unemployment resulting in people not being able to pay their debt, or taxes etc etc etc, ... taking over their houses->no bond repaymenst to the banks, as well as no debt payments->the banks will go bust.... so what do you have : no food, no munny, no economy, another african country down the drain, more than 300years of progress gone poof!
Everybody will be so much worse of.
I'm not for a second saying the whites are the only people carrying this country, but think about it, we are all dependent apon another, and need to stand together to keep SA moving forward.
Are you really telling us this is what you want, our proud nation & country going back to the dark ages? Forget AA, this civil war talk will just result in job losses where neither white or black will be able to get decent jobs.
Luckily it is quite evident that the majority of people in this country, white & black alike have the foresight to know that what u're talking about is not even an option, if we want to keep moving forward and improve our great country.

 

[xtermin8or]

@ CeeBee - no you still don't understand what I am saying, I am saying the mood of the people at the time of the transition was that of take over from the whites in all aspects, farms, houses, cars everything

I am saying that the ANC and other liberation orgs, understood that this would not work, and worked hard to get people to understand this, and to make a peaceful transition, so as to make South Africa a country that truly belongs to all who live in it.

If you read what I ws trying to say, I am saying that had the ANC wanted to just completely take over from whites, they would have let anarchy prevail, and pick up the pieces afterward, they did not, instead they soberly looked at the situation and stopped the anarchy, and they are now trying to create a balance in society, so that you don't end up like Zimbabwe

Please try to read what I am saying, if needs be, re-read and read again slowly

 

[IamCanadian]

For all of you are too dumb to understand what I meant by the statements I made on violence, here is an explanation ( of course it would have been easier to refer you to the original post, but then again even with a re-read you probably still won't get it )

I said at the time of transformation, that is how things could have played out, and if it there could have been justification for it, after all the years of oppression, I said that ANC leaders could have justified violence by saying, our people are frustrated

That is not the way it happened, the transition was largely peaceful, my point was that this was due to the sober leadership of the liberation organisations and the spirit of Ubuntu of the African people, that was my point - but I now understand that if you don't understand that, then you will never understand an issue as complex as AA

I did get what you were getting at.

You are saying that the violence was justifiable prior to the handover, and if you did not get what you wanted violence would have been justifiable as well. Correct? You are also saying thank God that violence did not get the upper hand. Correct? But do you REALLY mean that or are you somewhat sorry that whitey was not taught a lesson? In other words, has history dealt you a bum hand and you are not seeing proper retribution meted out to whitey?

I am also curious why you failed to respond to the fact that there were two sides in the ANC. The one side wanted war and was preparing for it, but by some miraculous intervention, Mandela sold out the warmongers while he was still in prison.

Don't come with the crap of ubuntu. I never heard of that prior to the takeover by the ANC. I think ubuntu was brought into the picture after the takeover for some other reason, likely to cover up some malignant thing that was growing in the hearts of the warmongering side that was blindsided by Mandela.

What about "7 Days" and "Night of the long knives" I don't believe these things to be true and are most probably myth, but you know what they say, myth is often based on reality. Where is the spirit of ubuntu here when millions upon millions of blacks are destitute and have NOTHING. Do you really think that they don't want what they perceive to be theirs?

I am also beginning to think that the warmongers still want it all which is why the ANC practices economic violence against minorities in SA by using state sponsored "economic violence" bills like AA and then also officially denies that crime is a problem and that they also seem to take no notice of the murderous torture that is taking place when killing the boers on the land. It is not enough to just put a bullet in a boer and his wife. They must be tortured to death. I wonder why?

That is why I think you are full of crap.

Deep down you want all of SA to return to the native population. Don't try to deny it. You don't really like whitey. They are a thorn in your side.

 

[CeeBee]

no no I doo get what u're saying dude.
my point, and many of the other people's sentiment is that, like it or not, the white folks' skills are still needed too, and that AA, where it is implimented as it is in many cases, are hindering the progress of the economy, it is undeniable. It will take time to get the skills and the experience of the black guys out there, but in the mean time we should not kick out or block out the skilled, available white guys, resulting in many cases a deteriating business, which is understandable if u can't fill a position, or put someone in that just hasn't got the experience or skill. We need to improve the economy and create more jobs, where the ideal would be a spot for everyone.

Most of us would agree with u that AA is not inherantly a bad thing, as most SA'ers would like to see all of our people's lives improved.

 

[xtermin8or]

Yes, the ANC leaders in Lusaka, and London, wanted the armed struggle to continue, and yes Mandela began talking to the Apartheid Government while in prison, but those talks were merely to arrange talks between the ANC leadership and the Government, everything was done with the consent of the ANC leadership - in fact they were meeting as well

Thabo Mbeki met with reps of the Govt in Geneva, Trevor Abrahams was his driver

The ANC only abandoned the armed struggle in 1990, after talks with the Govt had been secured, the objectives of the struggle had been reached.

No, I do not want civil war, I have seen civil war and it is horrendous, no whitey is not a thorn in my side, and I do not want whites to be kicked out of the country ( that would not be good )

Yes, there is a large part of the population who are living in abject poverty, and yes that part of the population is growing increasingly restless that not enough is being done to help them out of poverty, and it would be foolish of govt to ignore the problem, hence they have implemented numerous poverty relief programmes, and things like AA.

Show me where any member of Govt. denied that crime is a problem, Mbeki might have said that it is not out of control, but he said it is a serious problem, and Charles Nqakula has said don't just sit and complain, but he admits there is a problem, so where do you get this from

Since you chose to try and paint a picture of me, let me do the same for you, you as I recall left the country just before democracy, prolly scared of the black man, and now that you can see the progress being made in the country, you are desperately trying to justify your move, if only to yourself. It must be hard to see the black man prosper, but in the spirit of Ubuntu, I am sure that you will be welcomed back.

Ubuntu was around forever, just because you didn't hear about it, soes not mean it did not exist

 

[xtermin8or]

no no I doo get what u're saying dude.
my point, and many of the other people's sentiment is that, like it or not, the white folks' skills are still needed too, and that AA, where it is implimented as it is in many cases, are hindering the progress of the economy, it is undeniable. It will take time to get the skills and the experience of the black guys out there, but in the mean time we should not kick out or block out the skilled, available white guys, resulting in many cases a deteriating business, which is understandable if u can't fill a position, or put someone in that just hasn't got the experience or skill. We need to improve the economy and create more jobs, where the ideal would be a spot for everyone.

Most of us would agree with u that AA is not inherantly a bad thing, as most SA'ers would like to see all of our people's lives improved.

And to what would you conribute the economic growth of the country ? if AA is hindering the progress of the economy, and if white guys are being blocked out, why then is there such a low unemployment rate among whites ?

 

[protzkrog]

Originally Posted by xtermin8or
The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses.

Quote:Originally Posted by xtermin8or
Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

how about the voortrekkers and the britished killed off 90% of the black population a few centuries ago (like the Australians did to the Aboriginies and the Americans to the Indians)
then we wouldn't have this conversation now...

 

[protzkrog]

And to what would you conribute the economic growth of the country ? if AA is hindering the progress of the economy, and if white guys are being blocked out, why then is there such a low unemployment rate among whites ?

because they leave the country ?

 

[protzkrog]

Ubuntu was around forever, just because you didn't hear about it, soes not mean it did not exist

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(ideology)

Zimbabwe

In the Shona language, the majority spoken language in Zimbabwe after English, ubuntu is unhu. The concept of ubuntu is viewed the same in Zimbabwe as in other African cultures, and the Zulu saying is also common in Shona: munhu munhu nevanhu. Other manifestations of ubuntu are that it is taboo to call elderly people by their given names, and daughters-in-law traditionally kneel down when greeting their parents-in-law and save them food as a sign of respect.

well..ubuntu sure worked out well for them...lol

 

[Fudzy]

Good point xtermin8or, I don't know of anyone who is unemployed or had their position hindered by AA.

how about the voortrekkers and the britished killed off 90% of the black population a few centuries ago (like the Australians did to the Aboriginies and the Americans to the Indians)

Have you got any more information on this genocide?

 

[xtermin8or]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(ideology)

Zimbabwe

In the Shona language, the majority spoken language in Zimbabwe after English, ubuntu is unhu. The concept of ubuntu is viewed the same in Zimbabwe as in other African cultures, and the Zulu saying is also common in Shona: munhu munhu nevanhu. Other manifestations of ubuntu are that it is taboo to call elderly people by their given names, and daughters-in-law traditionally kneel down when greeting their parents-in-law and save them food as a sign of respect.

well..ubuntu sure worked out well for them...lol

Ubuntu means much more than wiki shows

 

[protzkrog]

Have you got any more information on this genocide?

I mean "WHAT IF the voortrekkers and british killed the black population.."

 

[blonde one]

No, it's time you wake up and face facts, Apartheid may be dead, but it's effects are still being felt,

No it's not dead, it's being revived as reverse racism!

 

[xtermin8or]

how about the voortrekkers and the britished killed off 90% of the black population a few centuries ago (like the Australians did to the Aboriginies and the Americans to the Indians)
then we wouldn't have this conversation now...

I am glad that did not happen, like I am glad the violence against whites didn't happen, your point is ?