Affirmative Action

wayfarer said:
False. It is testament to the fact that the apartheid practice of oppression and usurpation caused deep and long term devastation and suffering, done by a power hungry and greedy minority over an impoverished majority. Furthermore, you cannot build wealth structures without first having some wealth/capital, and even though a tiny fraction of the victims of apartheid do have some wealth, the great majority of wealth still lies in the hands of those who "acquired" it through facilitation of the old system.
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I'm sorry, all I see is the wealth transferring from a few individuals of one colour to a few individuals of another, it is still held by a few. In short, the rich get richer and poor poorer.
 
The majority will never be able to compete with the 9%.
Education, initiatives, wealth distribution, they still won't be able to compete.
Everyone knows this, which is why discrimination is part of our constitution.
 
luxe said:
Perhaps you should read the quote again, as it is presented as FACT.

One does not require much logic to understand FACT, as I assume you a South African living in South Africa.
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The part of the quote about this being the only country where 'AA favours the majority' is maybe true, I don't know all countries with AA. But so what?

The second part is right wing rhetoric (yes I know what the right wingers will say). The government is using its power to skew business in a way that favour that 'majority' the first part of the quote says, thereby, in part, answering answering the right winged second part of the quote.

Allow me to elaborate on the first part, whether in favour of the majority or not is irrelevant. The facts stand that SA was probably one of the only countries (at that time) where a minority rules & oppressed the majority. In other countries where this happened, most of that minority rule ended in untold bloodshed or ongoing civil unrest! The right wing quote doesn't explain that, it instead convinces the opponent of AA by omission and in his eagerness the right winger gobbles up the 'facts' without so much as a peep or question. That's what Steve did with this piece the other day.

Please note that I have tried to be as civil as possible as I believe your OP honest if maybe a bit naive. You're not one of the 'boys' from B-block (refer to Oz (HBO)).
 
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Kosmik said:
I'm sorry, all I see is the wealth transferring from a few individuals of one colour to a few individuals of another, it is still held by a few. In short, the rich get richer and poor poorer.
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Then open your eyes, and have a look at corporates/industries in general. A much higher proportion of previously disadvantaged individuals now occupy more senior positions, earning more, and also there has been a boom in black business in the last decade. Also, many more females and blacks are being admitted into universities and other tertiary institutes.

But I agree that while some strides have been made, much more has to be done, as the majority of previously disadvantaged individuals are still languishing in makeshift squatter camps, some not knowing where the next meal is coming from, some resorting to crime, and many families are in distress for not being able to give their children the very basics that they need/deserve.
 
wayfarer said:
Then open your eyes, and have a look at corporates/industries in general. A much higher proportion of previously disadvantaged individuals now occupy more senior positions, earning more, and also there has been a boom in black business in the last decade. Also, many more females and blacks are being admitted into universities and other tertiary institutes.
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If we were all one colour and one gender, most of those people would never have gotten those positions, you know that.
 
It is quite obvious that AA and BEE in South Africa has been a dismal failure. Nepotism and cronyism in the guise of BEE and AA is rampant. Employing people in a position of power or management just 'cos they are black, regardless of their skill or qualification, is selfdestructive and is destroying this country.
 
R13... said:
The part of the quote about this being the only country where 'AA favours the majority' is maybe true, I don't know all countries with AA. But so what?
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So what? It's a racial majority voting in a way that ensures that they are given preference at the expense of a small racial minority. That's dangerous, and unethical, obviously. Makes it very easy for politicians too, because they are bribing their voters with other peoples money, jobs, education etc.
 
R13... said:
Allow me to elaborate on the first part, whether in favour of the majority or not is irrelevant. The facts stand that SA was probably one of the only countries (at that time) where a minority rules & oppressed the majority. In other countries where this happened, most of that minority rule ended in untold bloodshed or ongoing civil unrest!
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Absolutely! This point hits the nail on the head.

AA is the most sensible course of action. Remember that the mess we're in has not been caused by the oppressed masses. We did NOT go the way that many other regions went when the oppressive minority domination was overthrown. Instead of a violent and bloody revolution, or a mass persecution and expulsion of the oppressors, SA took the path of TRC and AA. In fact, many of the oppressed found it very difficult to swallow their anger while the wounds still fester, but thanks to the leadership of Madiba and crew, we followed a much more humane path.

However, the ANC/government is not faultless! There are many matters that they should be held accountable for. I'm sure many can publish lengthy lists of genuine/valid criticisms. But to condemn them for the implementation of AA is a bit off the mark.
 
HumanoidTyphoon said:
If we were all one colour and one gender, most of those people would never have gotten those positions, you know that.
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if we were all one colour and one gender, most of those people would never have been oppressed. I didn't want to join in this conversation as this is a really touchy subject. But wealth has been spread by quite an amount already. The black middle class is as big as the white middle class already. Hopefully as the black middle class grows the need for this policies diminish as well. We can say that it has been 17 years already, but this is probably going to last for quite some time still, because the scars runs deep.
 
There are three things that can change the poor to wealthy. They have to be used together

1. World class education - not some watered down muck like we have now
2. A perception change - the world does not owe you anything. If you want something work for it.
3. You can never build a society where discrimination is part of law. As long as any form of discrimination exists you will have an unbalanced society. Positions should be gained/achieved by ability, merit and hard work. Not handed to you because of your skin tone or who you know.


Example:

If you have two water buckets with lots of water in the one and almost nothing in the other, you pour water from the full one over to the one with almost nothing what do you get? You are taking away from the one that has and giving it to the one that doesn't. Instead of removing the water from the one, one should rather go to a tap and fill the empty bucket.

You CANNOT enrich the masses by taking from those that have, you are only reshuffling money and handing it to those that have no way of knowing how to use it correctly (education point 1) you are only creating more poor with this. However if you build the foundation correctly you supply them poor with a tap to fill the bucket. This will uplift the whole society and not just a particular group. Businesses will flourish, the tax base will enlarge and you will have an economy that returns to working order. Bringing about a better future for EVERYONE.
 
phoneJunky said:
if we were all one colour and one gender, most of those people would never have been oppressed. I didn't want to join in this conversation as this is a really touchy subject. But wealth has been spread by quite an amount already. The black middle class is as big as the white middle class already. Hopefully as the black middle class grows the need for this policies diminish as well. We can say that it has been 17 years already, but this is probably going to last for quite some time still, because the scars runs deep.
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Really? They walking around in animal skins, living in huts but they would just fit right in with an advanced society?
Why would the majority stop when the need is over? Why wouldn't they just use their majority to continue to do so, because they want to, because it benefits them?
 
wayfarer said:
LOL! ... and then also the heinous crime of APARTHEID would (could) not have happened, you know that!
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Even if apartheid didn't happen, they still wouldn't be able to compete. If they could compete with everyone else the continent would not have been so easy to conquer, would it?
 
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HumanoidTyphoon said:
I didn't say race, I said colour.
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Whoah! Worming semantics...

Then your statement doesn't make sense. AA is only applied where colour MEANS race. So if a white person tanned on the beach all summer long, this person would not now be considered Black/Coloured/Whatever. Similarly, albino "Blacks" may have a very light colour, but race/ethnicity is still Black.

So if you mean colour as in which wavelength is reflected off the skin, then your statement is nonsensical. However, if by colour you mean race, then your statement is more coherent, but still false as per my previous reply to your post.
 
Dude, the continent was so easy to conquer because there was no need to be scientifically advanced. There was enough food, population was kept in check so there was enough room for everyone.

There are many people competing in various ways.
 
HumanoidTyphoon said:
Even if apartheid didn't happen, they still wouldn't be able to compete. If they could compete with everyone else the continent would not have been so easy to conquer, would it?
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Wow! Try to pass that one by the science and social science communities today, and they'll laugh you.

A multitude of circumstantial factors lead to the European advancements in science and technology. They could have used this to help advance their fellow humans under different circumstances, or they could have used it to rob, rape and plunder. Guess which path they chose.
 
wayfarer said:
Whoah! Worming semantics...

Then your statement doesn't make sense. AA is only applied where colour MEANS race. So if a white person tanned on the beach all summer long, this person would not now be considered Black/Coloured/Whatever. Similarly, albino "Blacks" may have a very light colour, but race/ethnicity is still Black.

So if you mean colour as in which wavelength is reflected off the skin, then your statement is nonsensical. However, if by colour you mean race, then your statement is more coherent, but still false as per my previous reply to your post.
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Of course they mean race, not colour. Because race has genetic relevance to ability, and when you apply it upon large groups it is very consistant. Colour holds no relevance to ability, it is just one genetic factor piggy backing on race.
 
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