Affirmative Action

[luxe]

I doubt that this is correct.
False. Consider the case of Malaysia, where the majority Malaysians or very poor, with many living in abject poverty. The Chinese minority dominates in the areas of industry and finance, and largely keep the money in those communities. AA has been implemented as a facility to accelerate the move toward equity.

You misread my friend.

AA in South Africa is a MAJORITY (BLACK) OPPRESSING A MINORITY (WHITE). You example is exactly the opposite, unless you have not been clear?

 

[wayfarer]

Of course they mean race, not colour. Because race has genetic relevance to ability, and when you apply it upon large groups it is very consistant. Colour holds no relevance to ability, it is just one genetic factor piggy backing on race.

So then you realise that your post emphasising colour as opposed to race is a bit off the mark.

Anyway, how do races differ in terms of ability?

 

[phoneJunky]

You misread my friend.

AA in South Africa is a MAJORITY (BLACK) OPPRESSING A MINORITY (WHITE). You example is exactly the opposite, unless you have not been clear?

No his example is the same as it is in South Africa, the Majority oppressing the minority (Chinese)

 

[grok]

While the present government may or may not be doing things "right", that hardly means that AA is not necessary.

Pray tell, when will the present government start to 'get it right' then?

All I see is institutionalized corruption, nepotism and mismanagement that's grown to disaterous proportions. How is this not to the detriment of everyone in the country, currently and previously disatvantaged alike? Wealth creation depends on education and job creation, not empty promises and policies (like AA) that has exactly the opposite effect. I for one cannot get my mind around how Chinese people now qualify towards BEE, but indiginous coloureds not?

They could have used this to help advance their fellow humans under different circumstances, or they could have used it to rob, rape and plunder. Guess which path they chose.

The ANC managed to overthrow an oppressive system so in the eyes of the world they held the moral high ground for a while. They could have used this position to grow the country into a shining example of African success, or they could rob, rape and plunder like every country to the north of us. Guess which path they chose.

 

[TheMightyQuin]

Can anyone say why a country like the US or Britain would need AA?

No idea...anyone? Apart from being PC in the eyes of the world AND silently cursing their stupidly lenient immigration policies...also based on being as PC as possible of course.

 

[TheHiveMind]

Wow! Try to pass that one by the science and social science communities today, and they'll laugh you.

Who cares? They are taught not to even consider such scenarios, I'm not.
If they aren't going to consider that something may be truth because it's controversial, then they are idiots.

A multitude of circumstantial factors lead to the European advancements in science and technology. They could have used this to help advance their fellow humans under different circumstances, or they could have used it to rob, rape and plunder. Guess which path they chose.

Both

You are a muslim, you guys were right next to Africans the entire time, even on the continent, but the only thing you ever gave them is a free trip to hell to become a slave. Why didn't you give them anything of value? The middle east took more African slaves than America. The middle east still has slaves. They act towards blacks like whites acted towards blacks 100 yrs ago. The only thing the middle east brought to africa was ideological conquest and genocide. Still going on today.

 

[wayfarer]

You misread my friend.

AA in South Africa is a MAJORITY (BLACK) OPPRESSING A MINORITY (WHITE). You example is exactly the opposite, unless you have not been clear?

If my post lacked clarity, I apologise

I draw your attention to the bolded parts of my earlier post:

False. Consider the case of Malaysia, where the majority Malaysians or very poor, with many living in abject poverty. The Chinese minority dominates in the areas of industry and finance, and largely keep the money in those communities. AA has been implemented as a facility to accelerate the move toward equity.

Ethnic Malaysians make up over 50%, hence they are the majority. Chinese in Malaysia make up less than 30%, hence they are the minority. The ethnic Malaysians in Malaysia largely live in poverty, as opposed to the ethnic Chinese in Malaysia who are the advantaged and wealthy minority. AA is being implemented by the government to favour the majority (ethnic Malaysians in Malaysia).

 

[lynda123]

I disagree with the above statement - and it is not a question of colour. I think Affirmative Action; done fairly and property does enhance a more balanced society. The fact that people who had no resources to advance their education or even obtain sustainable income are given training opportunites and jpbs is a plus for me. It's quite surprising though when many people complain about this because the previous regime offered the same "Affirmative Action" plan where only a few were able to "benefit" from it. Just my 2 cents worth opinion.

 

[luxe]

Sure lynda123, but is AA benefiting those people who " had no resources to advance their education or even obtain sustainable income.."?

Or have Tokyo and Cyril bought another few R100m companies?

 

[R13...]

I disagree with the above statement - and it is not a question of colour. I think Affirmative Action; done fairly and property does enhance a more balanced society. The fact that people who had no resources to advance their education or even obtain sustainable income are given training opportunites and jpbs is a plus for me. It's quite surprising though when many people complain about this because the previous regime offered the same "Affirmative Action" plan where only a few were able to "benefit" from it. Just my 2 cents worth opinion.

Good points lynda. The opponents here are fallaciously arguing that AA ought to benefit a minority. They don't seem to care about the how & why as long as it's a minority that benefits, bugger the logical reasoning. You can't debate with logic like that

 

[wayfarer]

Pray tell, when will the present government start to 'get it right' then?

All I see is institutionalized corruption, nepotism and mismanagement that's grown to disaterous proportions. How is this not to the detriment of everyone in the country, currently and previously disatvantaged alike? Wealth creation depends on education and job creation, not empty promises and policies (like AA) that has exactly the opposite effect. I for one cannot get my mind around how Chinese people now qualify towards BEE, but indiginous coloureds not?

The ANC managed to overthrow an oppressive system so in the eyes of the world they held the moral high ground for a while. They could have used this position to grow the country into a shining example of African success, or they could rob, rape and plunder like every country to the north of us. Guess which path they chose.

Nice post, and some valid (and some not so valid) criticisms of the ruling party. Not too sure about the accuracy of your Chinese-Coloured BEE statement though.

Anyway, I have no intention of defending the ANC government per se, but just wanted to give my take on AA. Thanks.

 

[warchylde]

Good points lynda. The opponents here are fallaciously arguing that AA ought to benefit a minority. They don't seem to care about the how & why as long as it's a minority that benefits, bugger the logical reasoning. You can't debate with logic like that

Uhm no - the arguments I see say that AA and BEE shouldn't exist at all

 

[wayfarer]

Both

You are a muslim, you guys were right next to Africans the entire time, even on the continent, but the only thing you ever gave them is a free trip to hell to become a slave. Why didn't you give them anything of value? The middle east took more African slaves than America. The middle east still has slaves. They act towards blacks like whites acted towards blacks 100 yrs ago. The only thing the middle east brought to africa was ideological conquest and genocide. Still going on today.

Islam is not the topic here, AA is. Islam is not responsible for SA apartheid, but Muslims were a pivotal part of the resistance movement. Muslims also victoriously led many of the struggles against European colonialism in North Africa, and are still striving against neo-colonialism by Western powers and their puppet dictators, and Muslim are also combatting the extemist terrorist groups spawned through Western aggression.

Anyway, your "historical" information is factually incorrect. But any Muslim who engages in that or commits genocide is guilty of a serious crime. I do not condone it, neither does Islam, and you're welcome to start a new thread about this if your misinformation makes you feel that strongly about this matter.

Back to SA apartheid and the all-important AA...

 

[Kosmik]

Uhm no - the arguments I see say that AA and BEE shouldn't exist at all

More that they should stop existing. The problem is education. Use assistance to raise people up to a level playing field, ensure that they are trained/learned/taught everything they need to know to perform a function/job. People who are interviewing candidates should look at what the candidate can provide the company, not the colour of their skin or creed. Our economy suffers enough as it is.

 

[TheHiveMind]

Islam is not the topic here, AA is. Islam is not responsible for SA apartheid, but Muslims were a pivotal part of the resistance movement. Muslims also victoriously led many of the struggles against European colonialism in North Africa, and are still striving against neo-colonialism by Western powers and their puppet dictators, and Muslim are also combatting the extemist terrorist groups spawned through Western aggression.

All excuses.

So then you realise that your post emphasising colour as opposed to race is a bit off the mark.

No it wasn't off the mark, if they were whities in animal skins who had no civilization to speak of, the foreign white population is not going to mix with, and fk them. The differences are still there, and they are MASSIVE differences. Countries can't even get along with their neighbours who are almost the same people, nevermind people who could be from 5000 yrs ago.

 

[wayfarer]

All excuses..

Ok.

I think you said something about race having relevance to ability. Could you explain what you mean and maybe also give some examples.

 

[luxe]

I would prefer we focus on the issue of 91% of South Africa feeding off 9% instead.

 

[TheHiveMind]

Ok.

I think you said something about race having relevance to ability. Could you explain what you mean and maybe also give some examples.

Look around. It is observable. If you can't see it you don't want to see it. If you don't want to see it, I assume that the race you belong to, is not over represented in the attribute that you feel is most valuable.

Just because there are exceptions, that does not make vast odds invalid. They are still vast odds.

 

[wayfarer]

Look around. It is observable. If you can't see it you don't want to see it. If you don't want to see it, I assume that the race you belong to, is not over represented in the attribute that you feel is most valuable.

Just because there are exceptions, that does not make vast odds invalid. They are still vast odds.

I want to see it, but cannot. Maybe if you give a better explanation than the above and some examples...

 

[TheMightyQuin]

Islam is not the topic here, AA is. Islam is not responsible for SA apartheid, but Muslims were a pivotal part of the resistance movement. Muslims also victoriously led many of the struggles against European colonialism in North Africa, and are still striving against neo-colonialism by Western powers and their puppet dictators, and Muslim are also combatting the extemist terrorist groups spawned through Western aggression.

Anyway, your "historical" information is factually incorrect. But any Muslim who engages in that or commits genocide is guilty of a serious crime. I do not condone it, neither does Islam, and you're welcome to start a new thread about this if your misinformation makes you feel that strongly about this matter.

Back to SA apartheid and the all-important AA...

Islam institutionalized slavery. Muhammad began to take slaves after he moved to Medina, and had power. Slaves were usually taken in raids on nearby Arab tribes, or war, either through offensive or defensive actions. Islam allows the taking of slaves as "booty", or reward for fighting. This has led to numerous "jihads" by Muslim states and tribes to attack other non-Muslim groups and obtain slaves. Islamic jurisprudence laid down regulations for the proper treatment of slaves. However, abuses have occurred throughout history.