ANC aims to implement NHI by 2012

[Sarakael]

Could you provide an alternative solution that would be better to a welfare state? If you wanna deal with poverty I cant see a better model other than socialism.... and thats really not where we wanna be.

Its simple really. A model that has a government that doesn't interfere in the lives of its people, that allows them to start and run businesses (and therefore create jobs) without lots of red tape, one that doesn't have a union around every corner. One that has freedom of press (to keep the government in line) and democracy (to keep the government in line). One that holds land ownership sacred.

If you don't believe that will work, look at the United States and most of Europe. Seems to have worked well for them.

 

[Gushesh]

Its simple really. A model that has a government that doesn't interfere in the lives of its people, that allows them to start and run businesses (and therefore create jobs) without lots of red tape, one that doesn't have a union around every corner. One that has freedom of press (to keep the government in line) and democracy (to keep the government in line). One that holds land ownership sacred.

If you don't believe that will work, look at the United States and most of Europe. Seems to have worked well for them.

+1

 

[w1z4rd]

Its simple really. A model that has a government that doesn't interfere in the lives of its people, that allows them to start and run businesses (and therefore create jobs) without lots of red tape, one that doesn't have a union around every corner. One that has freedom of press (to keep the government in line) and democracy (to keep the government in line). One that holds land ownership sacred.

If you don't believe that will work, look at the United States and most of Europe. Seems to have worked well for them.

Im not sure you are reading my posts clearly. I asked specifically that you use an example that does not include a first world country as an example (as apparently I cant). So America is your example......well that and europe. Actually most of the big countries in Europe ARE welfare states. Do you know what a welfare state is? European countries that ARE welfare states:
Sweden
Norway
Netherlands
Finland
Denmark
Germany
Switzerland
France
Belgium
United Kingdom
Italy

So for you to use European countries as an example of your model when they are clearly Welfare states is confusing. Im guessing you dont understand the concept clearly or something to make such a big error in your argument?

Please click on this link to get educated as to what a welfare state is and who actually is a welfare state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty

+1

Gratz, you just +1`d a post that was torn to shreds

Seriously now.. do you guys know what we are talking about? There seem to be massive misconceptions and lack of understanding shown on the topic thats got me confused. I think people`s mindsets are still stuck in the 80`s with the whole capitalism vs communism or something like that. I actually dont know.

 

[Vrotappel]

So 8 million will be paying for the health care of 50 million? Let's see how sustainable this is.

 

[w1z4rd]

So 8 million will be paying for the health care of 50 million? Let's see how sustainable this is.

Im waiting for your better solution then... seems all people can do is bash the system without providing a better alternative. To have such negative responses to the system without providing constructive alternatives is pretty useless. So no point here then? You just dont like the system cause it costs a lot but are unable to provide a better solution? Ok, got it.

We currently have an unemployment rate of 25.3%, before France implemented the Welfare model it had an unemployment rate of over 30%. Once the welfare model was implemented France`s unemployment dropped to 9.8%. This is so not hard maths.

 

[Geriatrix]

Aaaand another gravy train will be inaugurated...

 

[w1z4rd]

Whats with all the Huisgenooit/ You magazine comments?... weres Wild_Cat?, at least he can have an intellectual debate on the subject.

 

[jambai]

Well I suppose I now know that SARS wont be seeing a cent of my tax for my skills .Easy decision from my side but always have thought that way as the african way just does not work .There is nothing more to discuss really other than africans are consumers and not producers,one work where 10 sit around.It is their culture.Wonder what the so called ANC intellectuals can justify this using basic economic principle if supply and demand

 

[w1z4rd]

Yup, people are definitely stuck in the 80`s. *sigh*

 

[neiln329]

ANCs motto is: "If its working fix it until its broke(n)..."

 

[w1z4rd]

MyKKK forum posters motto "I dont have anything intelligent to offer to the debate so i will say something completely useless, bigoted and not at all constructive".

 

[Alan]

Say what???


Eish W1z4rd I thought you had a problem with insults being posted on the forum.....

Or is it only when you're on the receiving end

 

[Djtay]

ANCs motto is: "If its working fix it until its broke(n)..."

Its not working.

 

[unskinnybob]

Its not working.

If by 'IT" you mean ANC, then spot on.

 

[Sarakael]

Im not sure you are reading my posts clearly. I asked specifically that you use an example that does not include a first world country as an example (as apparently I cant). So America is your example......well that and europe. Actually most of the big countries in Europe ARE welfare states. Do you know what a welfare state is? European countries that ARE welfare states:
Sweden
Norway
Netherlands
Finland
Denmark
Germany
Switzerland
France
Belgium
United Kingdom
Italy

So for you to use European countries as an example of your model when they are clearly Welfare states is confusing. Im guessing you dont understand the concept clearly or something to make such a big error in your argument?

Please click on this link to get educated as to what a welfare state is and who actually is a welfare state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_on_poverty

I read your post fine.

Of course you can't use a third world country as an example. By their very nature third world countries cant successfully be a welfare state/have proper free national medical cover.

You think all those first world countries were always first world? They did something to get to where they are now. I outlined what they did. South Africa needs to do the same so that it too can successfully implement something like the NHI.

And you didn't rip my post to shreds, you merely lost the entire point of it.

 

[Sarakael]

Im waiting for your better solution then... seems all people can do is bash the system without providing a better alternative.

The better solution is to get our country into the first world, before we try implement things only a first world country can afford.

 

[porchrat]

Isn't our national debt rising? How can we afford to implement the NHI?

Is it wise for a government to try and implement something like this before we solve the myriad of other problems we have?

Heck some first world countries can't afford these systems how on Earth are we going to afford it with so many people living below the poverty line?

 

[Ockie]

I still think that a NHI system is brilliant on paper....but it depends on the government that wants to implement it if it will be such a good idea in practice. I am sorry, I dont mean to be a nay sayer...but I dont trust the ANC to implement such a scheme succesfuly. They cant run our already existing hospitals and they are falling appart! What they need to do is prove to the population that they can do a decent job of running our health care system with the money and budget they already have. The money is there....but they are stealing and miss routing the monies like there is no tomorrow. Only once they have done that, then they can look at something like a NHI for South Africa. OH....and stop with the BEE crap in the Universities. When I go to hospital, I want to know that he got his qualifications because he is a good doctor......not because of his skin colour!

 

[mjkelly]

Im waiting for your better solution then... seems all people can do is bash the system without providing a better alternative. To have such negative responses to the system without providing constructive alternatives is pretty useless. So no point here then? You just dont like the system cause it costs a lot but are unable to provide a better solution? Ok, got it.

We currently have an unemployment rate of 25.3%, before France implemented the Welfare model it had an unemployment rate of over 30%. Once the welfare model was implemented France`s unemployment dropped to 9.8%. This is so not hard maths.

W1z4rd those stats mean very little, as an unemployment rate has no bearing or relation to the amount of the population that has no job, and is also not looking for one. Percentages are generally very misleading, pure numbers is what you should be looking at.

While I agree most of these comments are not helpful, and none of them propose better ideas or any solutions, I think you are looking in the wrong place if that is what you are looking for. This is not an economists website, where a panel of highly educated people give their views and opinions.

Also using a first world country like France is not a fair comparison as you mentioned. While I'm sure some people appreciate your devils advocate stance, are you trying to tell me you agree with the implementation of the NHI? At a time like this, when we are coming out of a recession, busy employing an expansionary fiscal policy and dropping the repo rate to encourage spending and while balancing that with trying to keep inflation at a reasonable rate. You wish to blow all that out the water all the proposed taxes?

I'm not saying I don't agree with a welfare state, but we need to be very careful when and how we implement it. And I do NOT think we are currently ready for it. All your first world countries you mentioned can afford to pay the health sector enough money to keep them, we keep losing our doctors and nurses overseas, so add those numbers to the 80 000 nurses the ANC still needs to train. Never mind our current skills shortage and the numbers that will flee our shores the moment they can't get decent healthcare at an affordable rate for their families.

These are just a few problems...the list goes on and on...

 

[Gushesh]

I read your post fine.

Of course you can't use a third world country as an example. By their very nature third world countries cant successfully be a welfare state/have proper free national medical cover.

You think all those first world countries were always first world? They did something to get to where they are now. I outlined what they did. South Africa needs to do the same so that it too can successfully implement something like the NHI.

And you didn't rip my post to shreds, you merely lost the entire point of it.

+1, Exactly