ANC aims to implement NHI by 2012

I read your post fine.

Of course you can't use a third world country as an example. By their very nature third world countries cant successfully be a welfare state/have proper free national medical cover.

You think all those first world countries were always first world? They did something to get to where they are now. I outlined what they did. South Africa needs to do the same so that it too can successfully implement something like the NHI.

And you didn't rip my post to shreds, you merely lost the entire point of it.

Okay, now you just are being deliberaty obtuse.

You A) dont understand the the most successful nations in Europe (which are welfare states) WHICH YOU INCORRECTLY used in your example and B) Cant show me a better solution... and no.. the European states dont count because theyre actually welfare states.

Seriously, until you admit your error I dont see the point in continuing this discussion.My original point was pro welfare, you came in anti-welfare with a non-point, I let you have your "point" but then asked for examples of working state models of your non-welfare state. You then gave welfare states as an example. I pointed this out to you.. but you completely and utterly lost track of the debate and your point and simply pretended like you didnt fk up. Oh well.. I cant debate with someone who doesnt have the guts to admit and correct their errors.

Tell you what, Ill head over and do some heavy concentration on capitalism and get back to work. Im totally wasting my time here.

FYI, countries with worse unemployment rates and less natural resources have implemented the policy.. and it worked (ie France), yet it wont work here? *sigh*
 
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Okay, now you just are being deliberaty obtuse.

You A) dont understand the the most successful nations in Europe WHICH YOU INCORRECTLY used in your example of welfare states and B) Cant show me a better solution... and no.. the European states dont count because theyre actually welfare states.

Seriously, until you admit your error I dont see the point in continuing this discussion.So how about this, " Here here! Yeah you are the man, congrats! you won!" . Next time you are in a debate, try keep it straight.


Ok I am going to try one more time.
I'll even make it in point format to make it easier for you to understand

1. I know that most European states are welfare states.
2. America is going this way to under Obama.
3. The above countries are first world countries
4. NHI is a good idea BUT
5. South Africa can not afford it
6. We should become a first world country so that we can afford it
7. To become a first world country see my first post above

To recap
NHI = GOOD
Not being able to afford it = BAD
Solution: Become first world country then implement NHI

If you still can't understand that then

" Here here! Yeah you are the man, congrats! you won!"
 
W1z4rd those stats mean very little, as an unemployment rate has no bearing or relation to the amount of the population that has no job, and is also not looking for one. Percentages are generally very misleading, pure numbers is what you should be looking at.

Yay, an intelligent poster! I can understand stats are misleading, I would love to get those numbers you mentioned so I could get a clearer picture. You are probably right.

While I agree most of these comments are not helpful, and none of them propose better ideas or any solutions, I think you are looking in the wrong place if that is what you are looking for. This is not an economists website, where a panel of highly educated people give their views and opinions.
Yeah this place has the wrong crowd for this kinda conversation.

Also using a first world country like France is not a fair comparison as you mentioned. While I'm sure some people appreciate your devils advocate stance, are you trying to tell me you agree with the implementation of the NHI?
Yes. By yes I agree with the need for it. We need it.

At a time like this, when we are coming out of a recession, busy employing an expansionary fiscal policy and dropping the repo rate to encourage spending and while balancing that with trying to keep inflation at a reasonable rate. You wish to blow all that out the water all the proposed taxes?
Could you prove that it will blow it out the water? Or is this speculation based on afropessimism?

I'm not saying I don't agree with a welfare state, but we need to be very careful when and how we implement it. And I do NOT think we are currently ready for it. All your first world countries you mentioned can afford to pay the health sector enough money to keep them, we keep losing our doctors and nurses overseas, so add those numbers to the 80 000 nurses the ANC still needs to train. Never mind our current skills shortage and the numbers that will flee our shores the moment they can't get decent healthcare at an affordable rate for their families.

Yeah that I think is the only real argument against a welfare state. Its complicated and requires skills to run it.

Anyways, Ill check back in on this thread in a couple of hours. See if I can have those closer look at those numbers you mentioned. I want to have an informed opinion and my views are always open to correction with the right data.
 
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...and it worked (ie France), yet it wont work here? *sigh*

It seems most ppl can agree that it's a great idea. That it would be great if it worked. But that the ANC / government is so deeply saturated with corruption, theft and tenderpreneuring that it's hard to believe that it won't fail and place more burden on the already stretched, over-taxed middle income bracket.

There's almost no precedent for projects that the ANC / government has implemented and made a success of. And it's very hard to think that this will be any different. It's a huge undertaking.
 
Im an addict.. had to check back to look for replies:D


Lets look at your arguments against a Welfare state:

5. South Africa can not afford it

Could you give me the math behind this point. Please make sure that math includes what the cost of not having a welfare system would be. Medical aid, etc etc etc.

6. We should become a first world country so that we can afford it
Ill have to see the maths in the point above before I can accept this is a point at all.

7. To become a first world country see my first post above

This is when its getting interesting. You make pretty blanket statements in regards to how to become a first world country:

You claim:

1) We need a libertarian government. Yet other than mentioning red tape you dont say how this reduces poverty an unemployment. (Yet a welfare state does both...)
2) Getting rid of unions ( so basically you want to get rid of the people fighting for employee rights and more pay for the working class)
3) Freedom of Press (seriously? Do they have press freedom problems in Canada or Sweden and what does this point have to do with the concept of a welfare state? :confused: I agree, we need free press, but how that works into our discussion on financial models.. mmmkay)
4) Democracy, (something that all examples of welfare states are best known for!)

So how am I meant to get a "better solution" from the points you bring up? You are not really offering any solutions with dealing with poverty and unemployment, in fact the solutions you suggest would mean the poor get poorer and the rich get richer and lead to a more unequal state.
 
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It seems most ppl can agree that it's a great idea. That it would be great if it worked. But that the ANC / government is so deeply saturated with corruption, theft and tenderpreneuring that it's hard to believe that it won't fail and place more burden on the already stretched, over-taxed middle income bracket.

There's almost no precedent for projects that the ANC / government has implemented and made a success of. And it's very hard to think that this will be any different. It's a huge undertaking.

Yeah, I agree that the complexity of implementing the NHI is going to be very difficult.
 
Yeah, I agree that the complexity of implementing the NHI is going to be very difficult.

And the premium the tax-payer will have to pay for the corrupt government implementing it will make it very expensive!
 
Shooeee lots of questions. But I'll do my best

Could you give me the math behind this point. Please make sure that math includes what the cost of not having a welfare system would be. Medical aid, etc etc etc.

People who can afford medical aid are not going to stop paying for it. They don't trust government hospitals as far as they can throw them.

An economist quote in a thetimes.co.za article said it would be an extra tax 10% cost to those paying tax. Its obvious we can't afford that. If we can't afford to pay for those recent strikers demands (government said we would have to make cut backs in other areas) how are we going to be able to afford another 10% tax. Believe it or not, most tax payers live from salary to salary. If you take 10% of their income away they will also have to make cut backs. Making cut backs on that scale means a recession. I'm not an economist but I would imagine taking 10% of the purchasing power of the tax payer away is not going to stimulate the economy.

You claim:
1) We need a libertarian government. Yet other than mentioning red tape you dont say how this reduces poverty an unemployment. (Yet a welfare state does both...)

If you want people to start businesses you need to make it easy for them to do so. Starting businesses = more jobs = less unemployment

2) Getting rid of unions ( so basically you want to get rid of the people fighting for employee rights and more pay for the working class)

Unions don't create jobs, they care only about their members. If a union is demanding 5% over inflation every year, thats 5% that could have gone to employing more people, starting new business (which employ more people) etc. Also unions make it harder to run a business and as per the above point hard to run a business = less businesses started/successful

3) Freedom of Press (seriously? Do they have press freedom problems in Canada or Sweden and what does this point have to do with the concept of a welfare state? :confused: I agree, we need free press, but how that works into our discussion on financial models.. mmmkay)

Like I said in my first post freedom of the press is important to keep the government in line (in other words keep them from stealing as much money as they can get their hands on). All first world countries have freedom of press

4) Democracy, (something that all examples of welfare states are best known for!)

Democracy keeps the current government in line. If they know they will get voted out if they **** up/be corrupt etc, chances are they are going to do their best not to **** up/be corrupt etc

So how am I meant to get a "better solution" from the points you bring up? You are not really offering any solutions with dealing with poverty and unemployment, in fact the solutions you suggest would mean the poor get poorer and the rich get richer and lead to a more unequal state.

No the system that I am suggesting has worked all over the world. Yes it has created incredibly rich people but it has also lifted the majority of their population out of poverty. Look at the demographics of all the countries that are run in the manner I suggest.

Now before you reply please think about what I am saying. Would you not like a country that had a majority middle class and little unemployment? Surely we should be looking at the most successful countries in the world and trying to emulate them? Well those countries are the ones in Europe and America.

You already want us to emulate them regarding universal health care, to do that successfully we need to emulate them in the other ways too.
 
You have to be retarded to think a comprehensive NHI will work in South-Africa.

The reason it works in England for example is that 90% of the population works and actually pay tax. Most are educated, skilled, or earn some form of wage and fall within the lowest tax brackets.

We have a country where we have between 23% and 40% unemployment (depending on the 2 different metrics you use).

We have a population of 50 million people and 4.5 million tax payers.

It doesn't take an economist to realize that such a small base that ALREADY SUPPORTS welfare grants, social grants, free electricity, free houses, free municipal services etc ... cannot bare the brunt of supporting an entire NHI system, if most of them already pay for private health care.

I would however support a heavily subsidized education system that would provide education and skills development to those who are willing to work for it. These people will then go and look after their own health care needs, build their own house, and pay for municipal services themselves.

It seems this government isnt interested in fixing the root cause of the problem.
 
I agree with KillerX. Rather spend the money on skills development and to educate the people so they can earn their own way and provide for their own medical aid.
 
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maybe use the Uk as an example.There are 28 million taxpayers.That is a few times more than Sa.The rate of tax for NHs is around 12% of your salary.The government is on a drive to cut back cause the strain on the NHs is to great.Why cause the NHS started out good but there are way too many people abusing it and the system.A doctor on the NHS can earn more than the president and the average doctors wage is around ÂŁ100k per annum.The NHS is biggest employer in Uk and one of biggest in the World.Now do u think it will work as we have the same size population as Uk with 5 million taxpayers?The rich dont use NHs as waiting list too long and If neded a doctor I would probally see one in Sa as he will be willing to see me straight away(I live in Uk).Corruption is everywhere but do you think it is worse in Sa or Uk.Just a few facts not saying it is tight or wrong to get HHi but more the implementation dont make sense for Sa.
 
Im waiting for your better solution then... seems all people can do is bash the system without providing a better alternative. To have such negative responses to the system without providing constructive alternatives is pretty useless. So no point here then? You just dont like the system cause it costs a lot but are unable to provide a better solution? Ok, got it.

We currently have an unemployment rate of 25.3%, before France implemented the Welfare model it had an unemployment rate of over 30%. Once the welfare model was implemented France`s unemployment dropped to 9.8%. This is so not hard maths.

You believe the quoted unemployment figure? LOL how naive. First step to address this country's problems is to stop giving people money for having children. Secondly address the employed that are unproductive and overpayed. Imagine the whole NHI goes on a strike for a 10% increase. Who is going to pay for that joke?
 
Yay, an intelligent poster! I can understand stats are misleading, I would love to get those numbers you mentioned so I could get a clearer picture. You are probably right.

Yeah this place has the wrong crowd for this kinda conversation.

That's right Wizard - you're a real intellectual.

The point you are missing is that - While 3rd world welfare states may artificially raise employment and provide healthcare to all, they do so at a cost to the country in the long run.

One only needs to look at Venezuela - in its aim to provide for each citizen from cradle to grave it has decimated its private sector and economy. Its bloated state apparatus cannot deftly negotiate world markets, nor provide competitive products to trade with foreign countries.

When France implemented its healthcare system it was not tax based (based on wage deduction) and did not cover everybody. Plus they had an educated workforce competing with other nations with similar work demographics.

We may need it, but we cannot afford it. I could decide that it would be nice to give everyone in SA 100 000 million US, it doesn't mean we are capable of doing so.

The alternative solution you keep asking for is to: increase our competitiveness, grow our economy, let people work hard and make money. Increase competition in the medical sectors - the current medical schemes / aid companies act like Duopolies. Provide a well run basic hospital system (like the ANC inherited).

The economic illiterates (especially comrades on the left in the ANC alliance) often look at the economy as a gigantic fixed (or shrinking) pie that needs to be fought over. Instead of viewing it as a dynamic system that can grow and in growing can enrich all South Africans.
 
I would like to add that I know of an emerging trend in Durban where people book theater time at Albert Luthuli hospital, and make use of a private surgeon for various procedures, simply because the theater time (including the theater staff and the recovery facilities) is less than one quarter of the price of theater time in a private hospital.

Now, are Albert Luthuli rates incorrect (they seem to be claiming that their rates are profitable, though I cannot prove this at all)?
If not, then is it perhaps true that private hospital rates are far too engorged by excess profit on every level of the supply and skills chain?

i.e. when government says that it can be done more cost effectively, do you think they have a valid point?

I am getting tired of seeing importers of CAT scan equipment driving around in Mazerati's, aren't you?
 
I agree with KillerX. Rather spend the money on skills development and to educate the people so they can earn their own way and provide for their own medical aid.

while in the meanwhile people get showed away from hospitals because they do not have a medical aid? :confused:
 
while in the meanwhile people get showed away from hospitals because they do not have a medical aid? :confused:

The ANC has said that NHI will take at least 14 years to implement, so there will not be visible results from day 1.
 
No because most people have seen how well it works :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Cross-country_comparisons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance

I dont know anyone in Canada, Sweden, Denmark, France or Germany that have that big a problem? :confused:

Probably only know the lazy people then who would struggle and of course promote the socialised system. Youtube Steven Crowder stuff on the Canadian healthcare system. He gives everyone a nice walthrough in Quebec Canada, including how it takes weeks to get simple medicine if you are a person, where as if you could walk into a store to buy the pills you need for your dog and have it cheap and quick.

Besides "I don't know anyone in Canada" argument is not an argument in itself, as you cannot know everyone and it is really easy to find someone who promotes the system. What about the guy who HAS to work to keep the system propped up? You ever ask his take?
 
while in the meanwhile people get showed away from hospitals because they do not have a medical aid? :confused:

There is no quick fix, but if you give somebody skills he can use it for much more than just medical aid.

BTW. People without medical aid can go to public hospitals, and yes the ANC needs to get there act together and improve the standard of care substantially.
 
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You believe the quoted unemployment figure? LOL how naive.

This is becoming the most pathetic response to any discussion on this forum! As soon as numbers are given to support an argument someone inevitably comes along saying that the numbers cannot be trusted. It seems that thumb-sucked assumptions and personal opinions are far more readily accepted than actual numbers! :rolleyes:
 
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