Andile going too far

nightjar said:
Was Bantu Education such a disaster, especially when compared to the present state of rainbow education?

The Bantu Education system, which was implemented by the apartheid government, turned out Dr Mamphela Ramphele, Kgalema Motlanthe, Tokyo Sexwale, Blade Nzimande, Menzi Simelane, Gwede Mantashe, Zwelinzima Vavi, Thuli Madonsela, Sizwe Mchunu, Dr Zweli Mkhize and Mangosuthu Buthelezi, to name only a few.

All of the above have worthwhile degrees that are acceptable anywhere in the world and I would bet that, given a choice, they would prefer their kids to have a Bantu rather than an ANC education.
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And you studied under Bantu Education?
 
chunk10 said:
King Leopold the second seemed to think so.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State
In the Free State, Leopold exercised total personal control without much delegation to subordinates.[5] African chiefs played an important role in the administration by implementing government orders within their communities.[6] Throughout much of the its existence, however, Free State presence in the territory that it claimed was patchy, with its few officials concentrated in a number of small and widely dispersed "stations" which controlled only small amounts of hinterland.[7] In 1900, there were just 3,000 whites in the Congo of whom only half were Belgian.[8] The colony was perpetually short of administrative staff and officials who numbered between 700 and 1,500 during the period.[9]
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I don't think you can blame what happened in the Congo on a few thousand people alone...
 
chunk10 said:
Yip the coloniser is just a peace loving person never hurt anyone its always someone else who did the bad deeds.
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I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you want to argue that millions were killed because of the evil colonisers, then the evil colonisers must have had collaborators.

The historian Adam Hochschild argued that the dramatic fall in the Free State population was the result of a combination of "murder", "starvation, exhaustion and exposure", "disease" and "a plummeting birth rate".[42] Although it is impossible to be sure in the absence of records, violence and murder represented only a fraction of the total. In a local study of the Kuba and Kete peoples, the historian Jan Vansina estimated that violence accounted for the deaths of less than five percent of the population.[43]

Diseases imported by Arab traders, European colonists and African porters ravaged the Congolese population and "greatly exceeded" the numbers killed by violence.[44] Smallpox, sleeping sickness, amoebic dysentery, venereal diseases (especially syphilis and gonorrhea) and swine influenza were particularly severe.[45] Sleeping sickness, in particular, was "epidemic in large areas" of the Congo and had a high mortality rate.[46] In 1901 alone, it is estimated that as many as 500,000 Congolese died from sleeping sickness.[47] Vansina estimated that five percent of the Congolese population perished from swine influenza.[48] In areas in which dysentery became endemic, between 30 and 60 percent of the population could die.[49] Vansina also pointed to the effects of malnutrition and food shortages in reducing immunity to the new diseases.[43] The disruption of African rural populations may have helped to spread diseases further.[39]

It is also widely believed that birth rates fell during the period too, meaning that the growth rate of the population fell relative to the natural death rate. Vansina, however, notes that precolonial societies had high birth and death rates, leading to a great deal of natural population fluctuation over time.[50] Among the Kuba, the period 1880 to 1900 was actually one of population expansion.[44]
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If you want to make a specific claim, then it's up to you to substantiate it, not for me to prove your claim wrong where you win by default should I fail.
 
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Xarog said:
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you want to argue that millions were killed because of the evil colonisers, then the evil colonisers must have had collaborators.


If you want to make a specific claim, then it's up to you to substantiate it, not for me to prove your claim wrong where you win by default should I fail.
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I didn't want to be proved right or wrong. I find it interesting how people respond.
 
chunk10 said:
I know right, that's why people are saying that we shouldn't vilify the Nazi's because good came of the Holocaust
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You're clearly trolling, but your repeating a grave oversight the great intellectual Andile made: the good that came out of the German nationalist movement came from the movement, not the holocaust.

You can say some good came from Nazism just like some good came from colonialism, just as some horrific things came from both, the holocaust is a terrible thing that came from Nazism, but the holocaust is not the movement that produced the "good" side effects, the movement was Nazism.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
You're clearly trolling, but your repeating a grave oversight the great intellectual Andile made: the good that came out of the German nationalist movement came from the movement, not the holocaust.
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Mmm? His (Andile's) example is clearly meant to be absurd. Lamp shades and soap? Come on...

NarrowBandFtw said:
You can say some good came from Nazism just like some good came from colonialism, just as some horrific things came from both, the holocaust is a terrible thing that came from Nazism, but the holocaust is not the movement that produced the "good" side effects, the movement was Nazism.
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I think it's disingenuous to treat the holocaust mutually exclusive from Nazism. The holocaust was clearly motivated by Nazism. And yes, there are many horrors motivated by colonialism.
 
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NarrowBandFtw said:
You're clearly trolling, but your repeating a grave oversight the great intellectual Andile made: the good that came out of the German nationalist movement came from the movement, not the holocaust.

You can say some good came from Nazism just like some good came from colonialism, just as some horrific things came from both, the holocaust is a terrible thing that came from Nazism, but the holocaust is not the movement that produced the "good" side effects, the movement was Nazism.
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Yes I did make an error in conflating the two.
 
Garson007 said:
Mmm? His (Andile's) example is clearly meant to be absurd. Lamp shades and soap? Come on...
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You give the retard too much credit, he doesn't have the mental faculties to conjure an intentionally absurd example. His only intention is to stir shyte.

Garson007 said:
I think it's disingenuous to treat the holocaust mutually exclusive from Nazism
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Not mutually exclusive, the one is a child of the other. You can't cherry pick the worst child and sarcastically claim it was responsible for good when it clearly was not. You need to compare like for like i.e. compare the parent of the holocaust with the parent of disenfranchisement in Africa. So compare Nazism with colonialism. To compare the holocaust directly with colonialism is an apples & oranges comparison.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Not mutually exclusive, the one is a child of the other. You can't cherry pick the worst child and sarcastically claim it was responsible for good when it clearly was not. You need to compare like for like i.e. compare the parent of the holocaust with the parent of disenfranchisement in Africa. So compare Nazism with colonialism. To compare the holocaust directly with colonialism is an apples & oranges comparison.
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I agree.

We are however still in disagreement on the intent of the initial tweet. The only way the tweet makes any sense is by using the holocaust, not as a comparison to colonialism, but as an absurd example to make a point. Maybe I'm just too soft on idiocy, and maybe that's why I support Trump while others do not. But my first instinct is always that the person behind the tweet is intelligent enough to not be random.
 
Garson007 said:
You think the driving force behind Hitler was blood-lust? Don't make a fool out of yourself! You need to know the motivations and the rationalisms of the enemy if you wish to defeat it. Making him archetypal evil loses all sense of where the Germans went wrong and misses the important message that history holds.
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Hitler was ultimately:

A) Power hungry
B) A huge fan of the Aryan race
C) A racist
D) An *******
E) A Nazi
F) A bigger ******* than other Nazis

His motivations were myriad, all of them intertwined with the belief that the Aryans (and Germany) should be superior and rule over others. That's Nazism's entire schtick. Hitler led other like-minded Germans to eventually seizing political power and he ultimately ended up ordering the annihilation of over seven million Slavs because he didn't consider them human beings. He viewed them as dogs, lesser than "true" Germans.

Yes, he was an archetypal evil. Nothing Hitler did could ever be considered redeemable to a sane person who isn't a Nazi supporter.
 
CataclysmZA said:
Yes, he was an archetypal evil. Nothing Hitler did could ever be considered redeemable to a sane person who isn't a Nazi supporter.
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It's not about redeemability or rejection that he was evil. It's about acceptance that he too was human, even if insane, and that his movements were dictated by his insane logic. This isn't done to humanize Hitler. It is a message that Hitler isn't an aberration. He came from and existed in the same universe the rest of us do. If we refuse to learn lessons from his motivations and apply it to modern individuals we risk repeating the past. We do not have to justify the ideology of people like Hitler, they do a good enough job convincing themselves!

Edit: An article on this I noticed earlier today: http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/24...rning-to-2017-america-not-a-political-cudgel/
 
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