Anglo-Boer War

Palimino said:
I also heard that the reason that the death toll was so high in the camps (I don’t know if this is true but it sounds plausible) was that the Boer immune system was greatly weakened. They lived isolated lives on farms and in very small communities. When they were thrust into densely populated camps and combined with indifferent hygiene, they became prey to many opportunistic diseases that others would just shrug-off.
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And?? This is not a mystery....the brits, started the war. There was no conspiracy theory, they started it. The first ABW was won by the boers, they then signed a peace treaty with the british, declaring their independance (the ZAR and the orange free state republic). The british went back on this peace treaty with the failed jameson raid, which was instigated by Rhodes.

Why was there a need for concentration camps for women and children...you know the dangerous types in a war?? So coming with an excuse like "oh it was there own fault they succumbed to disease", does not hold water.

When "The Passion of the Christ" was released, a lot of jewish organizations complained that "it put jews in a bad light". But guess what...they did it (well according to the bible of course), there is no uhm ahm, they did it. Same with the boer war....the british perpetrated some of the most ghastly atrocities and Kitchener received medals for it. So I think a little remembrance of something in our history is not a lot to ask
 
Palimino said:
I also heard that the reason that the death toll was so high in the camps (I don’t know if this is true but it sounds plausible) was that the Boer immune system was greatly weakened. They lived isolated lives on farms and in very small communities. When they were thrust into densely populated camps and combined with indifferent hygiene, they became prey to many opportunistic diseases that others would just shrug-off.
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You immune system would also take a knock if you don't get enough to eat, or nothing for days. You only have to look pictures of people in the camps to see that they were not looked after.
http://users.westconnect.com.au/~ianmac5/abw2.jpg
http://grapeinvestor.com/BoerWar/images/800px-LizzieVanZyl.jpg

As for hygiene, one program I watched on the camps, said that the English neglected towards the end of the war to provide enough soap, fresh water or even regular food. The water that was provided had to be used for everything (cooking, washing, drinking, etc).
 
Nod said:
You immune system would also take a knock if you don't get enough to eat, or nothing for days. You only have to look pictures of people in the camps to see that they were not looked after.
http://users.westconnect.com.au/~ianmac5/abw2.jpg
http://grapeinvestor.com/BoerWar/images/800px-LizzieVanZyl.jpg

As for hygiene, one program I watched on the camps, said that the English neglected towards the end of the war to provide enough soap, fresh water or even regular food. The water that was provided had to be used for everything (cooking, washing, drinking, etc).
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:sick::sick::sick:
 
A story runs in one side of my family about the camps. We also have one of where the british came to the farm one night and burnt everything down when there were only the elderly, women and children around. The story goes that the british assualted the adults and eventually one even turned on a small boy. He asked the boy where his father and others were hiding and he was brave enough to yell back at the soldier that they can find them buried on the hill under a cross if they want to check.
 
Gothan said:
And?? This is not a mystery....the brits, started the war. There was no conspiracy theory, they started it. The first ABW was won by the boers, they then signed a peace treaty with the british, declaring their independance (the ZAR and the orange free state republic). The british went back on this peace treaty with the failed jameson raid, which was instigated by Rhodes.
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???What are you raving about? What is not a mystery? What has a thumbnail history got to do with my post?.

Why was there a need for concentration camps for women and children...you know the dangerous types in a war?? So coming with an excuse like "oh it was there own fault they succumbed to disease", does not hold water.
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It’s called the ‘Scorched Earth Policy’. Used successfully by Russia against Napoleon and Hitler. By the French Foreign Legion in North Africa against Algerian and Moroccan rebels. See my blog (on this site) ‘South Africa: Mythbuster – English concentration camps’. I never said ‘coming with an excuse like "oh it was there own fault they succumbed to disease’:eek:.

The rest of your post is incoherent raving.
 
A lot of children died of things like chicken pox and measles and common childhood diseases. The British were also guilty of putting camps in really stupid places, where the weather was bad, no drainage, no fresh water and miles from anywhere. Kitchener and his staff were typical military men and had no real idea of how to manage something like a camp full of civilians. And in a number of cases, the camp commandant was part of the problem, and often they were not British at all. Boer women also preferred treated their children themselves using home grown remedies and would deliberately hide sick children from camp medical staff.

The camps are a real sticky point and as far as I am concerned the one that has the most impact on me as a researcher is the one at Irene. Its well worth a visit, and they had a wreath laying ceremony there on the 11th.
http://www.erfenis.co.za/
 
Gothan said:
And?? This is not a mystery....the brits, started the war. There was no conspiracy theory, they started it.
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Well, quite rightly so. The TVL republic was quite happy to let the "Uitlanders" in to mine the gold so that they could impose excessive taxation yet deny representation.
 
rwenzori said:
Well, quite rightly so. The TVL republic was quite happy to let the "Uitlanders" in to mine the gold so that they could impose excessive taxation yet deny representation.
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And on the other hand the "Uitlanders" were willing to work under those conditions knowingly. They only started "caring" about it when the English started stirring.
 
rwenzori said:
Well, quite rightly so. The TVL republic was quite happy to let the "Uitlanders" in to mine the gold so that they could impose excessive taxation yet deny representation.
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Actually, Paul Kruger and them did not want the gold mines, remember the Boere were primarily farmers, not miners. And the reason they did not want the gold mines was because of all the "uitlanders". The fort in jozi was actually build with its canons facing joburg because of the "uitlanders".

And if you check your history, ZAR was hovering on bankruptcy by the 1900s because they relied primarily on farming......not on taxation from gold

In one of his speeches Paul Kruger actually said that they [foreigners] are not here for "our" gold, they are here for "our" land (our of course used in context)

The Brits on the other hand, wanted the gold mines, especially Rhodes
 
Gothan said:
And if you check your history, ZAR was hovering on bankruptcy by the 1900s because they relied primarily on farming......not on taxation from gold
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IIRC "hovering on bankruptcy" was the reason for the annexation before the first bore wore. By the late 1890s the TVL republic was rolling in money.
 
a bit off topic, but considering Paul Krüger's surname, did he deliberately change it from German to Dutch or is it because of the fact that no typewriters could make the umlaut in those days?
 
rwenzori said:
IIRC "hovering on bankruptcy" was the reason for the annexation before the first bore wore. By the late 1890s the TVL republic was rolling in money.
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Then why did Paul Kruger have to go to the netherlands (spelling??) and other european countries to help financially with the war? They did not have the money to pay for the war, and remember, they did not even have a regular standing army, almost all soldiers were farmers that took their own guns and transport to war
 
Gothan said:
Then why did Paul Kruger have to go to the netherlands (spelling??) and other european countries to help financially with the war? They did not have the money to pay for the war, and remember, they did not even have a regular standing army, almost all soldiers were farmers that took their own guns and transport to war
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Oom Paul's motivations are a bit beyond me. In the absence of other references, a quick look at Wikipedia confirms that "Gold made the Transvaal the richest and potentially the most powerful nation in southern Africa" and that "President Paul Kruger proceeded to re-equip the Transvaal army, and imported 37,000 of the latest magazine Mauser rifles, and some of the most modern artillery in Europe including German Krupp artillery."
 
Links to some interesting articles

http://www.archive.org/stream/paulkrugerandhi01statgoog/paulkrugerandhi01statgoog_djvu.txt

Paul Kruger and his times
Paul Kruger Book ( Full Text)

The Transvaal Wars
Volume 1
Volume 2
Volume 3
Volume 4
Volume 5
Volume 6
Volume 7
Volume 8

SA's wars and Heroes

I linked to the plain text since they are all under 1meg - the .pdf's are all around 20megs and have images etc.

A list of early books about the Boers & the Uitlanders

Blacks, Boers & British a 3 cornered problem - Written in 1881
AUTHOR'S NOTE. A WORD ought to be said as to the circumstances under which my experience of South African affairs was gathered. In 1877 I accepted an offer to proceed to Natal and under- take the Editorship of the Natal Witness, the oldest established journal in that Colony. My connection with that journal lasted till the end of 1879, when I left Natal for Cape Town, for the purpose of conducting a new paper, which, although started under conditions very favorable to success, collapsed through financial mismanagement. My experience of South Africa extends, therefore, over a period of something more than three years.
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Who was responsible for the Boer War

enjoy ;)
 
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rwenzori said:
Oom Paul's motivations are a bit beyond me. In the absence of other references, a quick look at Wikipedia confirms that "Gold made the Transvaal the richest and potentially the most powerful nation in southern Africa" and that "President Paul Kruger proceeded to re-equip the Transvaal army, and imported 37,000 of the latest magazine Mauser rifles, and some of the most modern artillery in Europe including German Krupp artillery."
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The Boers did have new equipment and they believed that Germany was coming to help them via South West and Mozambique to finally chuck the english out of SA.

Paul Kruger only left the country AFTER they had lost, and caused alot of resentment towards him from some of the Boers
 
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rwenzori said:
Oom Paul's motivations are a bit beyond me. In the absence of other references, a quick look at Wikipedia confirms that "Gold made the Transvaal the richest and potentially the most powerful nation in southern Africa" and that "President Paul Kruger proceeded to re-equip the Transvaal army, and imported 37,000 of the latest magazine Mauser rifles, and some of the most modern artillery in Europe including German Krupp artillery."
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Ouch....seems you are correct, I'll just remove my foot from my mouth here....but I still believe we should have a day of remembrance for the ABW.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT, that did not cause the problems, according to sources, most foreigners did not have a problem in transvaal or the legislation.....Britain on the other hand did, cause they were losing out here

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/governence-projects/anglo-boer-wars/anglo-boer-war2i.htm

Phew....love history man, it rules!!!!
 
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Nod said:
You immune system would also take a knock if you don't get enough to eat, or nothing for days. You only have to look pictures of people in the camps to see that they were not looked after.
http://users.westconnect.com.au/~ianmac5/abw2.jpg
http://grapeinvestor.com/BoerWar/images/800px-LizzieVanZyl.jpg

As for hygiene, one program I watched on the camps, said that the English neglected towards the end of the war to provide enough soap, fresh water or even regular food. The water that was provided had to be used for everything (cooking, washing, drinking, etc).
Click to expand...
The symptoms of disease and dysentery perhaps?
 
Gothan said:
Ouch....seems you are correct, I'll just remove my foot from my mouth here....but I still believe we should have a day of remembrance for the ABW.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTT, that did not cause the problems, according to sources, most foreigners did not have a problem in transvaal or the legislation.....Britain on the other hand did, cause they were losing out here

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/governence-projects/anglo-boer-wars/anglo-boer-war2i.htm
Click to expand...

+1

always remember since it is part of our history.
 
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