Apple could use software workaround to avoid US sales ban

[Dolby]

None of the actions or headlines circulating now scream that Apple is innocent :

• "Apple has an approved fix to get around the Watch ban. Customers may not like it"
• "Apple to drop blood oxygen tool from Apple Watches to avoid import ban"
• "Redesigned Apple Watches not subject to import ban, US Customs says"
• "Apple Watch ban latest – the Watch 9 and Ultra 2 could go off sale again soon"
• "ITC files opposition to Apple’s request to stay Apple Watch sales ban: ‘Apple presents a weak and unconvincing case"

Besides, Apple isn't exactly the beaming tower of integrity & honesty

 

[Dolby]

And Masimo being a patent troll?

This is a MEDICAL company with MEDICAL patents & MEDICAL products that supply the global MEDICAL industry

Even if someone has trouble thinking, that one sentance goes against what a patent troll actually is

 

[Dave]

@Dolby is truly in his element here…

 

[Dolby]

@Dolby is truly in his element here…

I’m not wrong either

 

[Hush9300]

I don't care too much for this feature but seeing as the short term solution is simply to remove the Blood Oxygen App it suggests to me at least that the infringement relates to how this is measured and not the hardware involved.

Pretty sure Apple will figure this out sooner rather than later and restore the functionality.

Anyway, unless your name is @Dolby, this is not something to get your knickers in a twist about.

 

[konfab]

Let's assume you're right and you do know more than the attornies dealing with case.

• Why would ITC even ban Apple watch in the first place?
• Why would U.S. Federal Appeals only pause the ban?
• Why would Apple start contemplating work arounds & changes to get past the ban?
• Why are they looking at dropping the feature?
• Why were they looking at running to the President ?

Apple to drop blood oxygen tool from Apple Watches to avoid import ban

Apple has prepared modified Apple Watch models that could help it to avoid an import ban caused by a patent dispute with a California tech firm.

www.digitaltrends.com

I'd think at some point someone would have said the below - but teams of very smart people are saying seeing merit & Apple is already looking for ways out ...

'hey! your patent is that little bit of plastic in the middle with protrusions coming up'

Appeal to authority doesn't win any cred here fam.

US Patent No. 10,945,648 was found to be infringed upon by an Administrative Law Judge in the ITC case. More specifically, Apple infringed on claim 24 and claim 30 of the patent, which covered the aspects “wherein the protrusion comprises opaque material configured to substantially prevent light piping” and “wherein the protrusion further comprises one or more chamfered edges,” respectively.

https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

I just want to know how these people made the decision. I would be completely satisfied if they actually showed the schematics of the Apple watches in question and where the actual infringement comes in. "Hey, here is this piece of plasic in the patent, and here is the same shaped thing on the Apple watch". I would be convinced by that Remember, burden of proof is meant to reside on the people wanting the action to happen. I really cannot find anything that substantiates this decision.

This is the problem with quasi-judicial entities like the ITC, they don't need to meet the standards of evidence as would require in a trial.

 

[Dolby]

.

Why is Apple going to change their product in such an open & shut case?

 

[Crowley]

'hey! your patent is that little bit of plastic in the middle with protrusions coming up'

Reminds me a lot of another famous case where a patent troll company took a company to court because their rounded corner looked like another rounded corner.

 

[konfab]

Why is Apple going to change their product in such an open & shut case?

There is always cost vs benefit.

Changing the tooling slightly on one piece of their product likely is cheaper than fighting off a stupid patent troll.

 

[Dolby]

Changing the tooling slightly on one piece of their product likely is cheaper than fighting off a stupid patent troll.

Omg - there are two of them :/

 

[konfab]

And the damning part is likely whatever slop Masimo produces, it won't be as good as Apple's functionality when it comes to HR tracking...

I have been looking at a fitness tracker, and came across this guy who does really good scientific tests on all these products.

https://www.robterhorst.com/post/apple-watch-ultra-2-vs-series-9-scientific-review

 

[backstreetboy]

Reminds me a lot of another famous case where a patent troll company took a company to court because their rounded corner looked like another rounded corner.

Rounded corners? Lol.

 

[Crowley]

Rounded corners? Lol.

Yes, Apple changed the way we interact with our phones. Kudos to them for that.

Doesn't change the fact that bar style phones have 4 sides and 4 corners.

 

[konfab]

Omg - there are two of them :/

No, they are a troll.

Kiani and Masimo's history of legal action certainly works in his favor, with repeated wins over others in the courtroom concerning patent infringement. "Justice isn't just blind but very slow," insists Kiani. "It's painful. It's an ugly thing to go through. It's like war."
The profile on the company and Kiani's legal fights includes claims that some people view his "aggressive use of the U.S. patent system" as being "exploitation that stymies the innovation of others."
The battles picked by Kiani are protracted but lucrative to Masimo. In one seven-year patent fight with Nellcor that ended in 2006, Masimo secured damages and royalties that eventually totaled close to $800 million.
Meanwhile another seven-year patent infringement spat against Royal Philips which settled in 2016 saw Philips pay $300 million and agree to use Masimo's technology in its product. That move earned Masimo in excess of $1 billion.
While Masimo has so far spent around $100 million on its legal case against Apple, it still has some spare cash available. In 2022, the company posted around $144 million in profit.
Though Apple hasn't sought discussions with Masimo for a settlement, Kiani is said to be determined enough to continue, even if he loses the company.


https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...100m-in-apple-watch-patent-infringement-fight

You want hard evidence, look at their other cases:

Notwithstanding this evidence, True Wearables argued that it had presented sufficient evidence to show that the algorithm was generally known, as an IEEE conference paper disclosed an algorithm equivalent to the TSS algorithm, and that paper had been cited over 1,200 times. However, the Federal Circuit found that while this publication showed that TSS was known in the field of statistics, there was no evidence showing “that the statistical principle had particular application to Masimo’s field or a related field.” True Wearables cited a number of cases for the proposition that “display in a single publication of an alleged trade secret in its entirety is conclusive evidence that it is generally known.” However, the Federal Circuit found those cases distinguishable, including because in those cases, (1) the alleged trade secret was disclosed to others in the plaintiff’s field, and (2) the plaintiff had authorized the publication of the alleged trade secret, thereby extinguishing the plaintiff’s rights. Here, True Wearables had failed to make a showing that others in Masimo’s particular field (or a related field) were aware of the IEEE paper.



https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/federal-circuit-deems-algorithm-4144530/

In Masimo Corp., Masimo Corporation and Ceracor Labortories, Inc. (collectively, “Masimo”) sued True Wearables, Inc. (“True Wearables”) and Dr. Marcelo Lamego for trade secret misappropriation. Specifically, Masimo alleged that Dr. Lamego misappropriated the trade secret known as “TSS”. TSS is related to Masimo’s proprietary algorithm used to solve optimization problems surrounding oximeters[3]. Masimo’s TSS uses a simple linear algebraic equation: “SpHb = Ax + By + Cz . . .,” where x, y, and z are absorption measurements (e.g., wavelength readouts) from the oximeter and A, B, and C are coefficients which relay important information to the user. Masimo Corp. at 2.

The true downfall for True Wearables’ argument was that the algorithm or variants of the algorithm were published to the statistics community, which the Federal Circuit deemed to be far enough removed to be considered unrelated to the medical field. Just because those in the statistics community were aware of the algorithm does not necessarily mean that the algorithm would be generally known by “entities who develop noninvasive blood content detectors” such that said entities could derive economic value from the disclosure. Id. at 13. For example, if the algorithm was disclosed to the healthcare community at large, True Wearables may have had a stronger argument that TSS was “generally known.” However, the Federal Circuit found this to not be the case.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c898fcf8-3be3-4ef2-9291-ab2426503931

This is complete and utter B.S. A linear regression is something that is used absolutely everywhere. I literally used one on pulse oximetry as a toy example after I finished my masters. (So yes, I actually do know quite a bit about this field lol).

What these people are doing is throwing a monstrous amount of $hit at the wall, and then relying on the fact that most people in the legal system don't know what pulse oximetry is, so it sticks.

The IP in question would be the actual coefficients that are used. And the data used to obtain them. If an employee literally took those coefficients, then yes it is IP infringement. If not, tough.

 

[konfab]

Rounded corners? Lol.

The PRADA Phone by LG (KE850), better known as the LG Prada,[2] is a touchscreen mobile phone made by LG Electronics, created in collaboration with Italian luxury designer Prada.[3] It was first announced on 12 December 2006[4][5] and was made official in a press release on 18 January 2007.[2]

The Prada was the first mobile phone with a capacitive touchscreen, thus not requiring the use of a stylus.[6] Its black minimalist look, designed by Kang-Heui Cha,[7] was an evolution of LG's popular Chocolate.[8][9]

The LG Prada was announced shortly before Apple CEO Steve Jobs announced the iPhone on 9 January 2007.[10][11][12]

 

[backstreetboy]

Court filing reveals Apple's iPad prototype from early 2000s | AppleInsider

Pictures of early design concepts for the iPad made between 2002 and 2004 have been revealed through an Apple court filing.

appleinsider.com

 

[Dolby]

.

So, basically to summarise ... this patent troll (Masimo) that fronts as a medical company approached the courts with a false claim that got Apple products banned ... and then Apple thought 'oh gosh- let's rather not fight & change our product even though we invested so much into get this product' ? And this patent troll company (Masimo) hired medical staff that Apple poached because they were doing nothing but admin for decades ... just waitiing for Apple to invent a smart watch & oxygen metre? And then pounced so they could get a few million dollars?

And that's more plausable to you than Apple encroaching on anothers patents ?

I'm not going to lie - but that's almost as elaborate as my toddler seeing unicorns outside my front window . But you're an adult & this is what you think ?

@Dave C'mon ... look at arguments most the iFans put together I mean it's truly laughable. I don't want to always be nasty, but it's just difficult at times

 

[Johnatan56]

Appeal to authority doesn't win any cred here fam.



https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

I just want to know how these people made the decision. I would be completely satisfied if they actually showed the schematics of the Apple watches in question and where the actual infringement comes in. "Hey, here is this piece of plasic in the patent, and here is the same shaped thing on the Apple watch". I would be convinced by that Remember, burden of proof is meant to reside on the people wanting the action to happen. I really cannot find anything that substantiates this decision.

This is the problem with quasi-judicial entities like the ITC, they don't need to meet the standards of evidence as would require in a trial.

You know what the actual patent is in this case, right?

Masimo Corporation (“Masimo”) is the assignee of U.S. Patent No. 8,457,703 (“’703 patent”), which relates to reducing power consumption of a pulse oximeter. ’703 patent, Abstract. The patent discloses regulating power consumption by intermittently changing the number of samples received and processed by the oximeter. Id. at 6:9–11. Based on physiological measurements and signal statistics, the oximeter determines whether to increase or decrease sampling. Id. at 6:25–39. In one embodiment, the patent discloses controlling sampling by intermittently changing the duty cycle of the current supplied to drive the LEDs that project light onto the patient’s tissue. Id. at 5:55–66, 6:56–7:8.

Claim 1 is representative and recites,
1. A method of managing power consumption during continuous patient monitoring by adjusting behavior of a patient monitor, the method comprising:
- driving one or more light sources configured to emit light into tissue of a monitored patient;
- receiving one or more signals from one or more detectors configured to detect said light after attenuation by said tissue;
- continuously operating a patient monitor at a lower power consumption level to determine measurement values for one or more physiological parameters of a patient;
- comparing processing characteristics to a predetermined threshold;
- and when said processing characteristics pass said threshold, transitioning to continuously operating said patient monitor at a higher power consumption level,
- wherein said continuously operating at said lower power consumption level comprises reducing activation of an attached sensor,
- said sensor positioning said light sources and said detectors proximate said tissue.Id. at 11:32–51 (emphasis added).

https://cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions-orders/22-1890.OPINION.1-12-2024_2252713.pdf

Which includes the set-up in terms of the number of lights and how they are arranged?

There are multiple lawsuits, and every company will try to defend every patent, else they lose it.

 

[konfab]

So, basically to summarise ... this patent troll (Masimo) that fronts as a medical company approached the courts with a false claim that got Apple products banned ... and then Apple thought 'oh gosh- let's rather not fight & change our product even though we invested so much into get this product' ? And this patent troll company (Masimo) hired medical staff that Apple poached because they were doing nothing but admin for decades ... just waitiing for Apple to invent a smart watch & oxygen metre? And then pounced so they could get a few million dollars?

And that's more plausable to you than Apple encroaching on anothers patents ?

I'm not going to lie - but that's almost as elaborate as my toddler seeing unicorns outside my front window . But you're an adult & this is what you think ?

@Dave C'mon ... look at arguments most the iFans put together I mean it's truly laughable. I don't want to always be nasty, but it's just difficult at times

When you go and claim that a linear regression is your top secret algorithm and thus a trade secret, you are patent troll.

You want more evidence?
I just wonder why the ITC suddenly went after Apple.

With federal and congressional investigations hanging over his head, first son Hunter Biden and his wife Melissa Cohen escaped Los Angeles by spending the weekend at a $50 million vineyard owned by medical device company executive Joe Kiani — a major donor to Democrats and President Biden.

Hunter, Melissa and their Secret Service protectors arrived at Kiani Preserve, about three hours north of LA in the heart of Santa Barbara wine country, in a four-car motorcade Friday evening — one week after the 53-year-old returned to the US from accompanying his father and aunt on a state visit to Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Caroline later messaged her cousin Hunter that she “didn’t get the job” at Masimo, but was later “given an intern job at 31 years old because of your dad asking him [Kiani] to give me something even though I bombed it.”

Days later, Caroline texted the now-first son that Joe Biden “told me he was done with me yesterday.”

However, the president apparently bears Kiani no hard feelings. The businessman was named in September 2021 to Biden’s Council of Advisers on Science and Technology, and in March of last year, the Washington Free Beacon reported that Masimo had received millions in government contracts since the 46th president took office.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/24/hunte...joe-kianis-50-million-vineyard-during-probes/

Hunter Biden hides away at major Dem donor Joe Kiani’s $50 million vineyard during probes

With federal and congressional investigations hanging over his head, first son Hunter Biden and his wife Melissa Cohen escaped Los Angeles.

nypost.com

You think the ITC really is that independent from 'nuncle Biden?

 

[Dolby]

When you go and claim that a linear regression is a trade secret, you are patent troll.

So …

Apple is saying ‘oh golly gosh … let’s not fight and rather change our product’ … but Masimo should have said ‘oh gosh … they stole our IP … oh well’

Have I got it right?