Are you hurting your ADSL ISP?

[Gaz{M}]

ISP's don't buy GigaBytes, they buy capacity. This whole GB argument makes no sense.

ISP "A" has, say a 1 Gbps backhaul and when it is too congested, they upgrade or shape or whatever. Over a large userbase, the traffic evens out and you can easily support uncapped accounts and capped accounts at low prices.

The biggest problem all ISPs face is peak traffic in the early evenings and at month end. The rest of the day/month, the usage is much lower than their peak capacity, so that is where they can breathe.

ISP's should seriously consider moving away from "Monthly" caps and spread their usage more evenly over the month. Maybe offer multiple billing cycles, so that some customers get caps from the 1st to the 30th, some from the 7th to the 6th of the following month etc. etc. like they do for Nashua/Autopage cellphone contracts.

That way the month end peak will be reduced and everyone benefits from more capacity.

 

[Chevron]

ISP's don't buy GigaBytes, they buy capacity. This whole GB argument makes no sense.

ISP "A" has, say a 1 Gbps backhaul and when it is too congested, they upgrade or shape or whatever. Over a large userbase, the traffic evens out and you can easily support uncapped accounts and capped accounts at low prices.

The biggest problem all ISPs face is peak traffic in the early evenings and at month end. The rest of the day/month, the usage is much lower than their peak capacity, so that is where they can breathe.

ISP's should seriously consider moving away from "Monthly" caps and spread their usage more evenly over the month. Maybe offer multiple billing cycles, so that some customers get caps from the 1st to the 30th, some from the 7th to the 6th of the following month etc. etc. like they do for Nashua/Autopage cellphone contracts.

That way the month end peak will be reduced and everyone benefits from more capacity.

This is actually a great idea.

 

[whatwhat]

Why the hell are people so hell bent on usage?

You can see this country has been brainwashed with Telkom's 3Gb for all mentality when ADSL first came out. Let it go, it's 2013.
Bandwith is like water and electricity.

 

[MKFrost]

Of course it is. Do you know how many people max their line just for the sake of it? because they think they "deserve" it?
because they think if they don't max their they're "not getting what they paid for". Even though what they paid for is a highly contended, shaped, home uncapped account.

So you are the type that go to a 'Eat As Much As You' restaurant/special and try and eat less as you know that it will hurt the restaurant?

Its not me that advertised it as 'UNLIMITED', 'UNCAPPED' etc.. What did they expect? And what do you expect people to do if you tell them 'Hey guys, there is no limit, enjoy yourself?

That is essentially what all the marketing material told us and now they want to cry because we listened to it....sorry but its not my fault. If they cannot handle the traffic then cap it i.e. change your business model.

EDIT: Add onto this the fact that they now refuse to tell us what fair usage is. Most asked their ISP's "If you are not happy then tell us where we should stop...." - And what has the reply been to date, have they told us?? No, nothing...

 

[Chevron]

So you are the type that go to a 'Eat As Much As You' restaurant/special and try and eat less as you know that it will hurt the restaurant?

Its not me that advertised it as 'UNLIMITED', 'UNCAPPED' etc.. What did they expect? And what do you expect people to do if you tell them 'Hey guys, there is no limit, enjoy yourself?

That is essentially what all the marketing material told us and now they want to cry because we listened to it....sorry but its not my fault. If they cannot handle the traffic then cap it i.e. change your business model.

You're missing the point.

The point of uncapped is to not have to worry about usage. One month your usage can be 500gigs, the next 50gigs, the next 300gigs.

If everyone used uncapped like that there wouldn't be an issue.

The problem is the people that think "I only downloaded 50gigs this month so now I need to go find things to download".

That's the issue.

If you want max your line for the sake of it you need business account.

 

[ponder]

Where is the GB usage values on the x-axis of this graph? Surely each block represents a figure?

 

[MKFrost]

You're missing the point.

No I'm not. Go back and go read through all the marketing material in regards to uncapped and see what is being promoted.

Never worry about limits.... Have the internet...... Unlimited downloads..... Watch movies...... Stream movies...... Make phone calls.......

And the list goes on. So we were encouraged to switch to uncapped so that we could essentially 'have the internet'.

I say again, sorry but not my fault. These marketing people understand human behavior better than most of us will ever do. You want to tell me that they did not expect this to happen? If so then its again their problem and not mine.

What you and they are expecting is that human behavior should change to fit your thinking and or business model and that will never happen.

There is a thing like reality. Deal with it or move on.

 

[R13...]

No I'm not. Go back and go read through all the marketing material in regards to uncapped and see what is being promoted.

Never worry about limits.... Have the internet...... Unlimited downloads..... Watch movies...... Stream movies...... Make phone calls.......

And the list goes on. So we were encouraged to switch to uncapped so that we could essentially 'have the internet'.

I say again, sorry but not my fault. These marketing people understand human behavior better than most of us will ever do. You want to tell me that they did not expect this to happen? If so then its again their problem and not mine.

What you and they are expecting is that human behavior should change to fit your thinking and or business model and that will never happen.

There is a thing like reality. Deal with it or move on.

They expected a small pool of heavy users subsidized sufficiently by a larger pool of regular users. Chevron has a point saying uncapped is so that you shouldn't need to worry about caps rather be able to use the net not try to download the internet 24/7.

 

[Leatherman]

lol. Buying a 21 piece bucket is like buying a capped account. Think of it like buying 21gigs. getting unlimited chicken from KFC would be like an uncapped account.

You obviously don't understand the uncapped model.

To me it makes perfect sense, The ISP is selling all you can use therefore I want all I can use.

 

[MKFrost]

They expected a small pool of heavy users subsidized sufficiently by a larger pool of regular users. Chevron has a point saying uncapped is so that you shouldn't need to worry about caps rather be able to use the net not try to download the internet 24/7.

I agree on what Chevron is saying. I for example did not use any data for 2 months, and for another 2 I used just over 10Gb and for another 3 I was capped. Over all though for the whole year thus far I am way below the 'fair usage' level on average.

What I'm trying to bring across though is the fact that all the ISP's have marketing people who are supposed to understand human behavior. They worked out the marketing strategy to go with the products and the ISP's management as a whole knew and understood their business model and they should have known what they could handle and what not. If not then they should not be in business in the first place.

They then went out and marketed this as I already stated as unlimited and what not. Like running into a school yard throwing around sweets and expecting all to pay YET only a handful to eat. Unfortunately for them their marketing wizards and management completely misunderstood human behavior. Even more so in this country where 'entitlement' is at the order of the day.

So the model did not work. Their best plans did not work. They misinterpreted human behavior. Who's fault is that? The humans and or the people who were supposed to understand the humans?

Besides all of this, what do we do now? Well we are waiting. All the ISP's have done thus far was moan and moan and shifting the blame for their failed models. They now try and get their models profitable again by enforcing terms and conditions never agreed on by the consumer, limits never declared to the consumers etc.... and try and justify all of this by making the consumer out to be the hoggs.

All I can say is man up. Your marketing plan failed, adjust, get over it, change your plan. Moaning is not going to save your business. If you cannot compete and or you are unable to compile a new business model which will work for you then go into another line of business.

 

[KikzAzz]

I am hurting my ISP, but there are 5 other guys that are not, that subsidize me, and therefore the ISP still makes a profit.
Of course not everyone is going to consume the same amount of data.

It's like the fat guy at the buffet eating 3 plates. Sure he might be costing the restaurant money for his plate, but for every fat guy there are 5 other people that don't eat as much.
In the end everyone still gets to eat how much they want to and the restaurant makes a profit.

If buffets/uncapped aren't making their target, then why are they still offering it?
It's because they make money.


Some of us consume too much, but most of us don't. It balances out - I don't see a problem.

+1. Basic economics.

 

[lucifir]

based on this, I am one of the guys subsidising other guys ... you're welcome :twisted:

I however agree with Gaz{M}, the comparison is not quite right as the ISPs pay for the capacity and not per GB. So, saying that some is costing the ISP money is not right, as the ISP is not paying any more money whether that person uses more or less, as they have a set capacity. You can argue that the person is creating a bottleneck for other users, and this is where the shaping and priority policies come into place.

 

[lucifir]

based on this, I am one of the guys subsidising other guys ... you're welcome :twisted:

I however agree with Gaz{M}, the comparison is not quite right as the ISPs pay for the capacity and not per GB. So, saying that some is costing the ISP money is not right, as the ISP is not paying any more money whether that person uses more or less, as they have a set capacity. You can argue that the person is creating a bottleneck for other users, and this is where the shaping and priority policies come into place.

 

[Skerminkel]

They sell it. And when you use it they moan about it. Yet they all make money.

I don't hear Afrihost moaning?

 

[Keeper]

I don't get some of you guys.
All over the world they can charge peanuts for high speed internet, here in South Africa we are paying a fortune for our internet access..... for pathetic speeds.

And now we're being told "we are the ones robbing the ISP's"

I can accept there is a breaking point in the graph, of course not every single one of us can max out our lines at the same time, we all know the pipes are shared.
What I'd like to know is how many users are below the line, and how many "elite" users are above the line?

 

[MKFrost]

What I'd like to know is how many users are below the line, and how many "elite" users are above the line?

Good luck in trying to find this out. They will not even tell us what 'fair usage' is. Like a car dealer refusing to tell you what the capacity is of the petrol tank on the vehicle you are buying. First buy it, then see how far you go.......

 

[Paul Hjul]

Of course it is. Do you know how many people max their line just for the sake of it? because they think they "deserve" it?
because they think if they don't max their they're "not getting what they paid for". Even though what they paid for is a highly contended, shaped, home uncapped account.

The point is that this sort of thinking is driven by a low capped paradigm and a marketing campaign from certain providers. The question needs to come back to why is Afrihost able to deliver. And without knowing more than is public domain about their business, the answer always boils down to: (1) they have a good relationship with their customers which discourages an entitlement attitude - the user is part of the system not trying to cheat it (2) they are properly dynamically managing the network and have a revenue coming in from selling a service rather than data.
There are DSL subscribers who are spending money to foreign companies to circumvent the shaping of ISPs with Afrihost there isn't incentive and if the periods of shaping pose a concern you can turbocharge - giving them rather than a foreign entity money.

From a network utilization point of view newsgroups are preferable to streaming and having users who exclusively download off news and share on torrents with no other network usage on a dynamically managed network is a pretty good way to maximize network usage without hurting experience - network under strain for a few hours fob in these guys. So this "24/7 is the problem" nonsense is just that nonsense - its hogging during peak that is a problem, and the ISPs really don't want to admit that Telkom and exchange congestion is their friend when it comes to having a demand manager in play.

The other major side of the coin which this line of articles and the general whinge from certain ISPs is that an ISP does not make money (or should not make money) selling gigabytes of data. ISPs make money by offering Internet services including hosting which can be far more lucrative but in order to host there must be consumers so if the barrier for consumption of Internet services is too high the market for the sale of hosting becomes problematic. As MTN has said there is a degree to which he with the most packets win and topping up the number of consumers on your network is useful in peering discussions - which you need to cheaply give your datacentres access to consumers and so on ... In fact I seem to recall Vox having said something to the effect that dsl will eventually become free ...

The problem clearly lies with the fact that the mighty Naspers wants to pull out of consumer DSL as a loss leader - and my nose is telling me that the appearance of unmetered access from Telkom Internet accounts to DSTV products means that they have accomplished a major driving factor of wanting to grow traffic volumes, namely having bullying/bargaining power with the largest ISP, meaning that now the incentive is to maximize profit (and by being stupid kill sustainability) on MWEB.

I am pretty sure Telkom can increase IPConnect capacity by 50% over the next 5 years at current pricing (so an effective price reduction) over and above the Comp Comm agreement if it forms part of a comprehensive term agreement that includes network investment and a lowering of dependence on Telkom for national backhaul as part of the IPConnect charge. - This would include thresholds at which ISPs have to have additional points of presence on the network from breakout.

 

[AfriMan]

I think a lot of the posts I've read here really get our intentions wrong. I can't speak for other ISPs but our intention is always to give all our available capacity and resources over to clients. Obviously, we are a business and we need to cover our expenses, but we actually put millions back into our products to make the affordable and more awesome.

At the end of the day, we believe that everyone has the right to decent internet. But like driver's on the road, everyone has their own interpretation of the rules. We try to make a fair system that works for everyone, and we would really like to avoid labelling people as abusers, there is surely a place for everyone if the system that governs the network is robust and clever enough to deal with everyone's patterns accurately.

This is exactly what we strive for. We've only been running our own network for just less than a year, but we've made huge strides in improving overall performance and refining our system of throttle-less Uncapped DSL. We think we are getting better and better at this, and as we add more layers of complexity to the system we are making the experience as awesome as it possibly can be for everyone on the network. We'll also get better and better at this so that the available capacity is fairly distributed to everyone on the network according to what they paying for

 

[Keeper]

Didn't Mweb state that 3% are these "power users"?

They sell us an "unlimited" service.
Then a small percentage use it that way, as an unlimited service.
Then they use shaping to stop us from using torrents.
Then some of us stream or watch youtube while torrents are shaped.
Then they introduce throttling for those using too much.

If they have all these systems to stop the abusers, why are they complaining?
Is their systems being bypassed? What's the problem? What more do they want?

 

[xrapidx]

Maybe the ISPs should start by defining what they consider abuse. Not some super secret random number.