Geriatrix
Executive Member
Hi, please re-read the op.
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Jola
Honorary Master
Yes. However, they would argue that they were fighting a proxy war against the USSR and Communist China, with some justification, since Cuban Mig-23 fighters with Soviet pilots were just over the border and were in fact instrumental in killing a number of SA soldiers.
Not sure about applying it to Western democracies, that is stretching things more than a bit.
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Wrong, check for example wikipedia:
I'm not denying that many were killed before then, but the actual "final solution" only started in 1942, that's when the death camps were built or converted, they weren't "in full swing" yet. Concentration camps were there before then yes (Dachau was built in 1933), but that's a different matter. Many people died due to poor conditions yes but their purpose was not extermination. They were built for political prisoners.
Well if they need justification all they need to do is point to those idiots that are being tried for treason and their friends.
Jola
Honorary Master
And if it is done by the future ANC President of SA ? That does not worry you ?
You can see into the future? You the psychic guy at the V&A that does tarot readings and fortune telling? What a wonderful psychic ability to have...
rainynight65
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That's what I did. It also came up with this little tidbit:
I am not arguing the timelines, but one needs to keep in mind that while WW2 and the Holocaust happened at the same time and are somewhat intertwined, they're still two separate historic entities. The Final Solution was conceived well before the systematic exterminations happened, which was indeed in or around 1942. The Wannsee conference was where the implementation of the Final Solution was determined, but the writing was on the wall long before then, with the Nuremberg laws, the pogroms, the establishment of the ghettos etc. About 1 Million Jews had already been killed in targeted raids and pogroms prior to 1942. The systematic killing didn't start because the war started going south, that's pretty much unrelated. In 1942, Germany was still very convinced that they would win the war.
With Malema the now defacto official ANC spokesman testing grounds for new policy (confirmed by ANC tolerance) is that not what the ANC are doing by tolerating the Woodworm Malema moron' comments and outbursts of racism and hatred. What will they do to me if I take a public stand and propose the opposite of what Malema is proposing and spreading hate like Malema do?
Only one way to find out
Malema's big mouth is NOT official ANC policy. They actually do have official policy documents.
We have a bill of rights and a constitution, which was set up by the ANC led government.
When Hitler came into power his official policy was well laid out. People didn't have to second guess his intentions.
All I'm saying is that if the ANC made destruction of whites or foreigners their official policy, as Hitler did with Jews (and others) then I would be worried.
I'm not so worried by big mouth JM, though that might change, of course, over the next few years....
Jola
Honorary Master
You don't need to be a fortune teller, just plain old common sense does the trick !
Jola
Honorary Master
Starting with the Freedom Charter, the letter and spirit of which is broken every minute of the day ?
And you are dreaming if you think that people actually had any idea of what Hitler was actually going to get up to. Sure the sentiments were there (as they are here), but nobody expected what actually happened.
I don't believe that genocide is the great risk, but rather quality of life and livelihood.
I know two families that thought just like you, that they had their fingers on the pulse and would know the right time to leave Zimbabwe, however they lost all their life savings including their homes and pensions.
I believe that the risk is much the same in SA.
2, 3 and 7 go towards rendering the targets of genocide easier. The working core of 2 and 3 is overwhelmingly non-black. They will not participate in genocide because they also match the attributes of the target. Seven goes towards weakening the effectiveness of the police.
Nine is cheap. Infrastructure already existed. Schools already possessed the arms and equipment. The cost of .22 rounds is not prohibitive. Neither is transport to competitions (much like away games). Training costs were like any extra-curricular activity (rugby, etc.). Cheaper. Regulation was (and is) made by the government. Sorry, if this is your reasoning it’s lame.
Well, I'm alive today because my grandparents left Germany as soon as it became apparent that Hitler was taking power.
Perhaps they didn't know the extent of what was to come, but they knew exactly what Hitler was planning.
Mein Kampf was published in 1925, almost 10 years he took power in Germany and he was very clear about were he was coming from.
If it becomes clear that Malema will be president of the country I might be more worried but you can't compare his big mouth to Hitlers plan.
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Not China. Cuba. There are many on the forum who forget just how formidable the SADF were (< note past tense). A small reminder:
Edited from previous posts.
Casualties during Operations Modular and Hooper between September 1987 and March 1988 (including Cuito-Cuanavale).
Enemy losses
4 768 soldiers killed (Some estimates were as high as 7000)
The equipment losses cover a page.
SADF losses
31 soldiers killed
3x tanks
4x Ratels
1x fighter aircraft
SA was fighting 3 nations – Russia, Cuba and Angola – with a conscript force. They [the conscripts] were ‘tricked’ into Angola initially because SA wasn’t supposed to be there (families and friends didn’t know where they were). A significant portion of the conscript contingent didn’t agree with government ideology and were fighting to survive only. The SA forces were outgunned in the air with Russian Mig 21’s and 23’s flown by Cubans – Russia supplied equipment and ‘advisors’, Cuba operated the hi-tech stuff and Angola (with some Cubans) supplied the infantry. It was a proxy war for the Americans against communism. There was no SA expansionist ambitions. It was Nat. ‘rooi gevaar, swart gevaar’ indoctrination. The SADF were much more highly motivated than Russian or Cuban troops. They thought they were protecting their homeland from the ‘Total Onslaught’ (which all SA whites were taught to believe from the cradle). The average enemy troop didn’t want to die far from home at the hands of the SADF (who didn’t have a shabby reputation) defending a brainfart of fat cat politicians (who kept their carcasses far from harm). The trouncing was so severe that there will always be ‘static’ about the results because national ‘face’ was involved. The static generation was made easier because SA wasn’t supposed to be there (static wouldn’t be strongly contradicted). The records are impeccable although the figures are SADF figures. “How can we believe them?” you ask. Consider:
#1 If the Nat. government were going to lie about SADF losses, why settle on such an implausible figure unless it were true?
#2 Russia and Cuba are in total control of their media. They can say whatever they want. They had just been roundly thrashed by the SADF. National ‘face’ was involved. Their stats. are not believable. Angola doesn’t keep coherent stats.
#3 **MOST IMPORTANTLY**. The ANC have their mitts on the levers of power and access to archives. They would relish exposing an SADF cover-up. Not a peep. This has got to be the ultimate verification.
Note: The SADF were 1 day's march away from Angola's capital when they were forced by international political pressure to withdraw. The Russians were being evacuated and the Cubans were in full retreat.
In Cuito Cuanavale the Cubans were given an incredible hiding by the SADF, but the SADF couldn't say anything as they weren't meant to be there in those numbers. Only in hot pursuit of SWAPO. This silence has created a gap for the other side to claim a victory when in fact there was a massive defeat. That conflict was billed to the SADF conscripts as the ‘Total Onslaught’. The ‘rooi gevaar’ and the ‘swart gevaar’ had teamed-up – it was plausible.
Jola
Honorary Master
Your grandparents were indeed fortunate that they realised what was coming, but many others were more optimistic and stayed too long.
Yes, the book was there, but not everyone interpreted it that negatively.
That was the problem, it was too ghastly to ever envisage it actually happening in a civilised society.
Yes, the book was there, but not everyone interpreted it that negatively.
That was the problem, it was too ghastly to ever envisage it actually happening in a civilised society.
(@) (@) twister
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Won't leave SA.
Got plenty of bullets and know how to use them.
Got plenty of bullets and know how to use them.
Jola
Honorary Master
The reason why I mentioned China is that they were also involved in supporting some of the liberation movements, including the PAC, I believe.
dlk001
Executive Member
Like I said, when similar events that lead to my homeland being on the bring of collapse, i.e. increasing political tensions resulting in significant reduction in harmony in the country