Article: Israel attacks barbaric: ANC

OrbitalDawn said:
And they'll say they won't stop until Israel stops expanding and vacates, which is backed by history since Israel doesn't seem to ever plan to leave those areas. Round goes the circle.
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As I said, the settlements won't be vacated within the week. It will be a long-term process, so the knobheads will have to shelve their rockets while the Israelis start moving out. If they can't hold back for a 2 - 5 year period while Israel moves out then they deserve every bit of misery they endure.

Hamas holds the key to immediate peace. Even if it hinges on a long-term promise by the Israelis, only Hamas can ensure immediate peace.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Why don't they take the Munich approach? Small groups of operators go in and take out rocket installations. Why do they need to constantly bash the civilian populace into the ground?
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A visible strike is just that, visible.

The moment you begin clandestine operations, such as the Munich approach , you will get the leftie liberal human rights crowd screaming about "death squads" and rule of law, blah, blah.
I am all for the small approach from single people to small units constantly targeting and assassinating terrorists and known criminals , clandestinely, quietly and wherever possible.
But unfortunately we havent yet reached that stage of reasoning or understanding in combating crime and terrorism.
 
gorgamin said:
The current ANC government is a completely different generation to those who planted those bombs and killed innocent people.
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Yip Zuma, Maharaj and co are a whole new generation....
 
thestaggy said:
As I said, the settlements won't be vacated within the week. It will be a long-term process, so the knobheads will have to shelve their rockets while the Israelis start moving out. If they can't hold back for a 2 - 5 year period while Israel moves out then they deserve every bit of misery they endure.
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ROFL you make it sound like Israel is actually trying to vacate. :D


Hamas holds the key to immediate peace. Even if it hinges on a long-term promise by the Israelis, only Hamas can ensure immediate peace.
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While I want nothing more than the bombs to stop flying do you honestly believe Israel would actually agree to give up the land they have annexed? Come on.
 
The problem with the Munich approach is that Israel has already lots the confidence of the civilians, they are also protecting Hamas out of fear and intimidation.
 
porchrat said:
ROFL you make it sound like Israel is actually trying to vacate. :D



While I want nothing more than the bombs to stop flying do you honestly believe Israel would actually agree to give up the land they have annexed? Come on.
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I NEVER said they are doing it. It is a viable long-term solution I offered as I recognise their faults as well. Please follow what has been said before.

1. Hamas stops with the rockets.
2. Hamas and the Arab World recognise Israel's right to exist.
3. Israel ceases territorial expansion and begins to either withdraw from currently occupied territory or instead offers territorial concessions elsewhere.

Those, in my opinion, are the only routes to peace. Whether either clown agrees to it or not does not matter, I am simply saying what I feel would sort the mess out. I'm highlighting the wrongs of both sides and offering a solution.
 
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Nicodeamus said:
Hey, I can also read some crackpot conspiracy theories, but the believe that Israel was ''stolen'' is equatable to believing that the moonlanding never happened, that 12 jewish bankers control the world or that the jews were really behind the holocaust.
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Thank you for that fallacy, and yes, those are all conspiracy theories, so what I say must equate to one as well right? Go read a few studies on the UN Partitioning plan for Palestine, including the numerous books written on the subject. This isn't a conspiracy. It's Political science and Middle-east relations 101.
 
gorgamin said:
Go read some more, instead of relying on your opinions.
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It's you that are relying on urban legends and wishful thinking.
There has never ever been a Palestinian state there... and the people never owned that land.
Before it was the State of Israel it was a British Protectorate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
History does not bear out what you are saying.
Maybe you can provide us with some kind of evidence or something, but I doubt it because there is none to support what you are falsely claiming.
 
Sinbad said:
The current ANC government RELIES on the legacy of the struggle to keep the voters voting for them.
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No they don't. The other parties don't care to go into informal settlements, where the majority of voters are. The ANC is the only party that actually lobbies for those votes. This is why the DA failed, and will continue to fail. Much to all our dismay.
 
Garyvdh said:
It's you that are relying on urban legends and wishful thinking.
There has never ever been a Palestinian state there... and the people never owned that land.
Before it was the State of Israel it was a British Protectorate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
History does not bear out what you are saying.
Maybe you can provide us with some kind of evidence or something, but I doubt it because there is none to support what you are falsely claiming.
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A yes the progressive Ottoman Empire who put a tax on every tree, resulting in the desertification of Israel and many northern African countries..
 
Nicodeamus said:
A yes the progressive Ottoman Empire who put a tax on every tree, resulting in the desertification of Israel and many northern African countries..
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The Ottoman empire that sided with the Germans and lost the resulting war.
 
Garyvdh said:
The Ottoman empire that sided with the Germans and lost the resulting war.
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The prosecution of the Kurds (of which legacy is Sadam Hussain's genocide in Iraq), the Armenian genocide and the rape and pillage of the greek population for their entire occupation.

Truly nice and noble people.
 
Nicodeamus said:
This is exactly how terrorist organisations like Hamas operate, they leave Israel with no choice, but to target those civilian outposts. Israel has to first eliminate the bases of these bombs and sadly children do get in the way. This is also how hamas tries to get the confidence of the already polarized communities. Show them blood and violence and you win the civilians over. It is a sick situation.
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Exactly. Which is why they need to be rooted out ideologically, economically and socially. History (past and present) shows us you don't defeat organisations like this through military means. Every bomb that drops and kills civilians creates more recruits. Taking out rocket installations is fine, but they'll just keep popping up until you actually address the reasons for their continued existence. Whether they'll ever eliminated completely I don't know, but they should become a fringe nutter group, not a dominant force in Palestine.

thestaggy said:
As I said, the settlements won't be vacated within the week. It will be a long-term process, so the knobheads will have to shelve their rockets while the Israelis start moving out. If they can't hold back for a 2 - 5 year period while Israel moves out then they deserve every bit of misery they endure.

Hamas holds the key to immediate peace. Even if it hinges on a long-term promise by the Israelis, only Hamas can ensure immediate peace.
Click to expand...

But there's absolutely no indication that Israel ever intends doing this, which is the problem. So no, I'd say Israel has more power in terms of a successful peace plan. As I said earlier, this isn't a battle between equals.

And Israel doesn't have to compromise their safety to show goodwill, either.

Nanfeishen said:
A visible strike is just that, visible.

The moment you begin clandestine operations, such as the Munich approach , you will get the leftie liberal human rights crowd screaming about "death squads" and rule of law, blah, blah.
I am all for the small approach from single people to small units constantly targeting and assassinating terrorists and known criminals , clandestinely, quietly and wherever possible.
But unfortunately we havent yet reached that stage of reasoning or understanding in combating crime and terrorism.
Click to expand...

Because the 'leftie, liberal, human rights crowd' is so pleased with what's going on now? :wtf:

The visible strike plays directly into Hamas' hands. They don't mind seeing their own civilians being killed.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Exactly. Which is why they need to be rooted out ideologically, economically and socially. History (past and present) shows us you don't defeat organisations like this through military means. Every bomb that drops and kills civilians creates more recruits. Taking out rocket installations is fine, but they'll just keep popping up until you actually address the reasons for their continued existence. Whether they'll ever eliminated completely I don't know, but they should become a fringe nutter group, not a dominant force in Palestine.
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I don't think this can be compared to cases like the IRA or even the ANC in South Africa.

Hamas has religion behind them, it requires a new level of insanity.
 
But there's absolutely no indication that Israel ever intends doing this, which is the problem.
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If there is one guaranteed prediction it is that when peace talks are on the cards, illegal settlements will begin construction.
 
thestaggy said:
I NEVER said they are doing it. It is a viable long-term solution I offered as I recognise their faults as well. Please follow what has been said before.

1. Hamas stops with the rockets.
2. Hamas and the Arab World recognise Israel's right to exist.
3. Israel ceases territorial expansion and begins to either withdraw from currently occupied territory or instead offers territorial concessions elsewhere.

Those, in my opinion, are the only routes to peace. Whether either clown agrees to it or not does not matter, I am simply saying what I feel would sort the mess out. I'm highlighting the wrongs of both sides and offering a solution.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. The settlements are justified as a strategic military necessity by the Israelis. Put as many people, who inevitably tend to be hardliners willing to live with the risks involved as the settlers are, between your mainstream population centers and those that threaten you.

As long as that threat is there the settlements will continue...
 
Garyvdh said:
It's you that are relying on urban legends and wishful thinking.
There has never ever been a Palestinian state there... and the people never owned that land.
Before it was the State of Israel it was a British Protectorate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
History does not bear out what you are saying.
Maybe you can provide us with some kind of evidence or something, but I doubt it because there is none to support what you are falsely claiming.
Click to expand...

Oh with pleasure, I have a hefty peer-reviewed reading list for you:

Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice By John Quigley
http://books.google.co.za/books?id=GX8jX9dJXIAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA37&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs by Ahron Bregman, Jihan El-Tahri
http://books.google.co.za/books?id=o8ZtAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war by Benny Morris
http://books.google.co.za/books?id=J5jtAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

American Presidents and the Middle East by Lenczowski, George (1990)

Before and After By Phyllis Bennis
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...yOcvqgdAI&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy U.S. Power By Phyllis Bennis
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...yOcvqgdAI&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

War with no end by Phyllis Bennis, John Berger, Stop the War Coalition, United for Peace and Justice
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&sa=X&ei=V6a_U8WdMIKyOcvqgdAI&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw

A Line in the Sand: Britain, France and the Struggle that Shaped the Middle East. - Barr, James (2012).
 
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