Article: Pierre Korkie has been killed

OrbitalDawn said:
No. You're not reading (or not understanding) what I'm saying. It isn't a singular ideology shared by all Muslims. It doesn't exist. If one Muslim sees it as a physical nation-state and another Muslim sees it as a spiritual destination then they are in essence not the same thing.
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You are denying the ideology of a caliphate which is a fact. It's not a spiritual thing and never was. It's a physical thing. Accept that and then we can continue debating the technicalities of it as mentioned by Fury.
 
JackWhite said:
Apartheid was whites, majority of whom were christians. Are we still today generalising?
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Did I say apartheid was right or that christians are angels? If apartheid was supported by the majority of them then yeah they are a bunch of tossers. many atrocities were committed in the name of christianity, not denying that at all.

It's like saying those christians that kill gays or abortion clinic doctors are not real christians. They believe in god/jesus just like the next christian and they believe they are living according to his word/bible which even backs them up.
 
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Pitbull said:
I'm not making the assumption. I am honestly not. If you are to tell Christians the March to Israel and go to Canaan the promised land, Land of milk an Honey... They will. If the Bible/Religion told them to kill their way there they would. This has happened already in the past, and Look at the holy crusade as an example. I can promise you not everyone supported the Holy Crusade, but once it was over and the wounds died down after a couple of years. People accepted it and embraced it.
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Interesting point. People can twist what people believe in (this may be religious or even political or ideological) to serve their own agenda. Or as in the case of the crusades, the people themselves may be misguided and believe that their crimes are in fact an heroic act. This may be synonimous to what we see today by these terrorist groups. You may be right that these groups use the idea of establishing a Caliphate as an excuse to use terrorism to gain power, but this is the fault of those people. Just like the Crusades was not truley representative of Christianity. I'm sure there are those who suffered at the hands of the crusaders who believed that all Christians were terrorists who would seek to oppress them and steal their lands. And just like those who make similiar assumptions today, they too would have been wrong.

But to reitterate, there is no place for terrorism or oppression in Islam. Even so called Islamic countries fail to adhere to this (looking at the sad migrant working issues in the middle east). Saudi fails abysmally in many places such that it cannot really be considered an Islamic country.. I could go on about this really, but that's another topic

Even though there are those who would embrace a State forged from un-Islamic actions, they would be wrong to justify any crimes done in doing so. And that attitude cannot be used as a means to justify today's crimes for the hope of tomorrows victory. It just can't happen. The Islamic belief is that victory will come from adhering to the commands of God only, not though military strength. And what these groups do is in direct contradiction to that.
 
Pitbull said:
You are denying the ideology of a caliphate which is a fact. It's not a spiritual thing and never was. It's a physical thing. Accept that and then we can continue debating the technicalities of it as mentioned by Fury.
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There is such an ideology, yes. Where did I deny it? Are you honestly doing your best to not understand what I'm saying? I'm saying it's not an ideology shared by ALL Muslims. Fury has also corrected you on this. Just accept it.
 
OrbitalDawn said:
There is such an ideology, yes. Where did I deny it? Are you honestly doing your best to not understand what I'm saying? I'm saying it's not an ideology shared by ALL Muslims. Fury has also corrected you on this. Just accept it.
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You are all over the place... First it's spiritual for some, physical for others... It's not. It is a Physical thing. It's a FACT. So let's stop jumping around from lily pad to lily pad. ALL Muslims aspire to a caliphate, as Fury confirmed but not all agree on how this caliphate is going to be run. The details around it will vary from camp to camp. I fully understand that as he rightfully said, no one interprets Sharia law the same.

Now, please stick to these let's not try and confuse each other by jumping around all the time.

EVERYTHING I just said is correct, you need to accept that. We're more than welcome to debate the intricacies surrounding it, but that is it.
 
Pitbull said:
And yes I agree with that. Do you think the rest of the world should attack the Middle east and stem all this caliphate nonsense now once and for all? Free the oppressed Syrians, Iraqis and Afghanistan people?

Or will it again be seen as another Western attack on Islam?
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The point to note in the recent history of the middle east is that all of these problems we have today are a result of the fracturing of the Ottoman Empire. This was, to an extent, the closest we've had to a truley Islamic state in recent history (with ofcourse deviations coming and going with changing of rulers, there were bad apples no doubt).
During Ottoman rule, there was peace in the empire. Muslims and non-muslims co-existed peacefully, and Palestine was a lovely place for both arabs and jews, and it's migrant african population.

And then the hammer fell. Who what where and why is another discussion, but the dissolution of what was a mostly Islamic Caliphate (to my limited knowledge) lead to turmoil in the region. Now we have monarchs and emir's who live off the fat of the land while their people starve. We have oppression and war all over the region. While the rulers claim to be Islamic, they have little to show for it.

The volatility in the region has left it vulnerable and the many wars and conflicts has torn it apart, leaving a vacuum for these groups to rise in. Western interferance from the early 20th century have only worsened the crisis.
So funny enough, it was true Islamic governance that was keeping that region in peace and non-islamic regimes that has given the opportunity for war and destruction.

This is ofcourse a simplification, as there were and still are many other external factors, and I am quite sure that even the Ottoman's themselves were not perfect.
 
Pitbull said:
And yes I agree with that. Do you think the rest of the world should attack the Middle east and stem all this caliphate nonsense now once and for all? Free the oppressed Syrians, Iraqis and Afghanistan people?

Or will it again be seen as another Western attack on Islam?
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What do you mean by attack? You need to be specific. Going in guns blazing and accepting innocents deaths as collateral damage is not a solution.

Advocating freedom from opression definitely, bombing the hell out of a country or nation with no regard for those living in absolute fear? Definitely not.
 
Pitbull said:
You are all over the place... First it's spiritual for some, physical for others... It's not. It is a Physical thing. It's a FACT. So let's stop jumping around from lily pad to lily pad. ALL Muslims aspire to a caliphate, as Fury confirmed but not all agree on how this caliphate is going to be run. The details around it will vary from camp to camp. I fully understand that as he rightfully said, no one interprets Sharia law the same.

Now, please stick to these let's not try and confuse each other by jumping around all the time.

EVERYTHING I just said is correct, you need to accept that. We're more than welcome to debate the intricacies surrounding it, but that is it.
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A very interesting topic, Indonesia has a muslim majority, yet it has shot down any sharia law argument offered, why is that?

Feel free to wiki
 
Fury05 said:
What do you mean by attack? You need to be specific. Going in guns blazing and accepting innocents deaths as collateral damage is not a solution.

Advocating freedom from opression definitely, bombing the hell out of a country or nation with no regard for those living in absolute fear? Definitely not.
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Muslims don't stand for oppression. I'm suggesting the world goes and liberates these oppressed people by any means necessary. Stop these oppressing regimes like Bashar al-Assad and the likes. Rip them all off the face of the earth and leave the peaceful people to self rule and set up their own caliphate. Why would such an attach be seen as an attack by the West on Islam?
 
STS said:
A very interesting topic, Indonesia has a muslim majority, yet it has shot down any sharia law argument offered, why is that?

Feel free to wiki
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Please don't confuse the Sharia Law issue with the Caliphate. They are 2 parts of the same thing yes I agree. The issue here is not with interpretations of Sharia law, but the ideology of a Caliphate. Fury is 100% correct Sharia law varies from person to person.
 
Pitbull said:
You are all over the place... First it's spiritual for some, physical for others... It's not. It is a Physical thing. It's a FACT. So let's stop jumping around from lily pad to lily pad. ALL Muslims aspire to a caliphate, as Fury confirmed but not all agree on how this caliphate is going to be run. The details around it will vary from camp to camp. I fully understand that as he rightfully said, no one interprets Sharia law the same.

Now, please stick to these let's not try and confuse each other by jumping around all the time.

EVERYTHING I just said is correct, you need to accept that. We're more than welcome to debate the intricacies surrounding it, but that is it.
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It is, for some Muslims. Look up Ahmadi Muslims.

And no, ALL Muslims don't aspire to it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/28774984

Mina describes herself as a progressive Muslim that grew up in an orthodox Sunni household. She recognises the theological concept of a caliphate but thinks the idea should be confined to history.

Zahra doesn't believe that a caliphate is needed in Islam today.

Fida argues that politics have nothing to do with a caliphate and that a caliph is a spiritual leader only
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See?

And no, Fury didn't confirm your position. In fact, he said:

"My own stand point as well as that of many other Muslims would only prove that you are incorrect in your assumption."

And he's said repeatedly that there is no agreement or singular interpretation of Sharia, which would be the basis of any Caliphate. Therefore there can't be any singular ideology.

So no, everything you said isn't correct.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-says-Islamic-State-embarrassing-Muslims.html

Also read this.

Now with growing extremism and hatred in the world, think of the damage your words could do to those that are on the fence.

Imagine there is a muslim in Indonesia that wants to join ISIS, but is trawling the net before he makes his decision. Would your words and arguments persuade hin, or make him rethink his decision?

Don't pussy foot around, but don't create a self-fulfillib prophecy where your words are clearly on display for the whole world to see, and is out there affecting hearts and minds right now.

Learn to distinguish between those that are wrong and those that are right, learn tolerance to those that deserve it, and think of the legacy you will leave
 
OrbitalDawn said:
It is, for some Muslims. Look up Ahmadi Muslims.

And no, ALL Muslims don't aspire to it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/28774984



See?

And no, Fury didn't confirm your position. In fact, he said:

"My own stand point as well as that of many other Muslims would only prove that you are incorrect in your assumption."

And he's said repeatedly that there is no agreement or singular interpretation of Sharia, which would be the basis of any Caliphate. Therefore there can't be any singular ideology.

So no, everything you said isn't correct.
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You are making the exact same mistake as STS. Don't confuse Sharia Law with a Caliphate. You're saying With SA law being skewed there is no South Africa... Laws are always open for interpretation and yes, somewhere agreement will need to be reach on Sharia Law for a caliphate to be successful. It doesn't take away the idea of a caliphate or that it can work with agreement from all views. These are 2 separate issues.
 
ponder said:
Not so long ago their health ministry wanted to classify FGM as a medical practice, not sure what came of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country#Malaysia

Great progressive country hey?
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He didn't say that. He simply refuted Pitbull's unsubstantiated assertions.

Anyway, Indonesia has lots of problems on this front, including horseschit blasphemy laws, and beyond that Islamist violence, including persecution of Ahmadi Muslims.
 
Pitbull said:
You are making the exact same mistake as STS. Don't confuse Sharia Law with a Caliphate. You're saying With SA law being skewed there is no South Africa... Laws are always open for interpretation and yes, somewhere agreement will need to be reach on Sharia Law for a caliphate to be successful. It doesn't take away the idea of a caliphate or that it can work with agreement from all views. These are 2 separate issues.
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So all christians want Revelations and End of Days?
 
Pitbull said:
You are making the exact same mistake as STS. Don't confuse Sharia Law with a Caliphate. You're saying With SA law being skewed there is no South Africa... Laws are always open for interpretation and yes, somewhere agreement will need to be reach on Sharia Law for a caliphate to be successful. It doesn't take away the idea of a caliphate or that it can work with agreement from all views. These are 2 separate issues.
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Sharia Law would be the basis of any Caliphate. If there is no agreement on Sharia there can be no agreement on a Caliphate, at its most fundamental level. So no, there is no singular ideology here.
 
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