BEE/AA- Reverse Aprtheid.

[Grimspoon]

BEE...AA...BBEEE... It's all a bunch of **** that has caused our economy and quality of service delivery to suffer.

I say Best man for the job. If the PDI's want to have a part of the system then they must send their children to school and universities.

:-(... shame, poor guys, don't you just feel for them?

I was a kid when the new SA was born, had NOTHING to do with apartheid, so why must a new potential job be given to poor Sipho who matriculated with me at the same school and year?

It's reverse racism no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise.

Well said - and remember poor Sipho got an H for woodwork and you got an A, but he still gets the job, pathetic is it not?

 

[R13...]

I think some of the people here have not grown up enough to understand why AA/BEE are needed. You keep harping on about education... really people at least go out & educate yourself about that same education you speak of, look at how the average black kid still has for education facilities as compared to the average white kid.

 

[Nod]

I think some of the people here have not grown up enough to understand why AA/BEE are needed. You keep harping on about education... really people at least go out & educate yourself about that same education you speak of, look at how the average black kid still has for education facilities as compared to the average white kid.

Why haven't the situation changed in 15 years? Who is to blame for the state of education in the country? Surely you can't blame apartheid any more?

 

[revere007]

I think some of the people here have not grown up enough to understand why AA/BEE are needed. You keep harping on about education... really people at least go out & educate yourself about that same education you speak of, look at how the average black kid still has for education facilities as compared to the average white kid.

Yeah Larrychang, where are the promises these doods made in 1994? what has happened to all the thousands I have given as a tax payer?

I'll tell you... It went to buy Sipho a brand spanking new 550i BMW. While his education level deserves to drive an UNO.

If every BMW, Merc and Audi can be taken back and liquidated to R values we will be able to put EVERY kid in SA in an Ivy League prep school.... But no, status cars and rampant international spending sprees are more important.

Keep going man, I can reprocess and spit back anything you can say about this subject.

 

[R13...]

Yeah Larrychang, where are the promises these doods made in 1994? what has happened to all the thousands I have given as a tax payer?

I'll tell you... It went to buy Sipho a brand spanking new 550i BMW. While his education level deserves to drive an UNO.

If every BMW, Merc and Audi can be taken back and liquidated to R values we will be able to put EVERY kid in SA in an Ivy League prep school.... But no, status cars and rampant international spending sprees are more important.

Keep going man, I can reprocess and spit back anything you can say about this subject.

I'm afraid you are not doing much on the actual debate about AA/BEE. Educations is a separate issue & if that's what you prefer to debate then say so. Something is till blinding you from seeing that this country needs AA/BEE if we are to function properly.

It takes a lot longer than 15 years to address decades of exclusion of the majority of the population from the economy & those inequalities as I have said before cannot be addressed through education alone.

Do you dispute the need for AA/BEE in this country?

 

[revere007]

Yes I dispute the whole concept surrounding BEE/AA.
Why do the 'racist' minority have to pay for the extravagancies of the 'repressed' majority?

BEE is not what is needed, hard work is what is needed.

If Sipho is a black guy and want to be a player in the local economy he first has to work very very hard to prove he is worth it. Then he has to save to buy the shares.... this is the international norm (even in other developing contries)

a guy working at Mcdonalds flipping burgers can still save to work his way up the ladder.... why must it be given to him?

 

[R13...]

Yes I dispute the whole concept surrounding BEE/AA.
Why do the 'racist' minority have to pay for the extravagancies of the 'repressed' majority?

BEE is not what is needed, hard work is what is needed.

If Sipho is a black guy and want to be a player in the local economy he first has to work very very hard to prove he is worth it. Then he has to save to buy the shares.... this is the international norm (even in other developing contries)

a guy working at Mcdonalds flipping burgers can still save to work his way up the ladder.... why must it be given to him?

Ok, let's start from the beginning you seem to be getting confused,

AA is meant as follows,

If a black & white candidate apply for the same position & it is discovered at interviews or short-listing that both candidates meet the job specific requirements (aka both can do the job), then the black candidate is preferred even if the white candidate may have some advantages

Now remember that AA was implemented in favour of Afrikaner in the past & I am sure the English made the same noises you are making.

You are unfortunately missing the point by ranting on about excesses of the rule elite & so forth... The excesses you speak of (whether real or imagined) do not help the case you are trying to make against AA in the context of this debate.

 

[STS]

first, there is no such thing as reverse-racism, there is only ever racism

secondly, as far as i KNOW, companies can CHOOSE if they want to implement AA/BEE if they want. they lose credibility but hey, they have better skills at the end of the day right? tell me if i'm wrong, coz i don't look up posts about BEE all day.

BEE was an excellent thing in the beginning, but i feel like it's being terribly abused now. but i also want to ask, everyone bringing up that the previously disadvantaged have had enough time to get over Apartheid, how many of you are JOBLESS becoz of BEE?

maybe it's just limited to my area, but everyone of my white friends are employed. i have a black friend, who could basically be a "Sipho" who has a degree, is extremly good at maths, and earns R1500 a month. and he isn't in such a k@k job becoz of BEE, he is in it becoz he doesn't have family and friends in high places, just like the days of Apartheid

 

[R13...]

first, there is no such thing as reverse-racism, there is only ever racism

secondly, as far as i KNOW, companies can CHOOSE if they want to implement AA/BEE if they want. they lose credibility but hey, they have better skills at the end of the day right? tell me if i'm wrong, coz i don't look up posts about BEE all day.

BEE was an excellent thing in the beginning, but i feel like it's being terribly abused now. but i also want to ask, everyone bringing up that the previously disadvantaged have had enough time to get over Apartheid, how many of you are JOBLESS becoz of BEE?

maybe it's just limited to my area, but everyone of my white friends are employed. i have a black friend, who could basically be a "Sipho" who has a degree, is extremly good at maths, and earns R1500 a month. and he isn't in such a k@k job becoz of BEE, he is in it becoz he doesn't have family and friends in high places, just like the days of Apartheid

You make some excellent point there man. Unfortunately the narrow-mindedness in these parts is so rife than people are missng the point of policy & its implementation and the good intentions of the policy.

I agree that AA/BEE are being abused by implementors at the altar of expediency & bonuses. The new ANC have said they take note of this problems and have undertaken to ensure that BEE especially benefits more than just a few elites. This is commendable & we should all wait & see if they deliver on that word. Many companies have started to take BEE seriously by resisting the temptation to enrich a few individuals for political connections. They are now implementing broader BEE including communities, women, disabled & their employees in this deals.

 

[JustAsk]

BEE...AA...BBEEE... It's all a bunch of **** that has caused our economy and quality of service delivery to suffer.

I say Best man for the job. If the PDI's want to have a part of the system then they must send their children to school and universities.

:-(... shame, poor guys, don't you just feel for them?

I was a kid when the new SA was born, had NOTHING to do with apartheid, so why must a new potential job be given to poor Sipho who matriculated with me at the same school and year?

It's reverse racism no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise.

At least you know what racism is...

There is no such thing as reverse racism.The reaction to any aggressive act is legal and justified.

 

[revere007]

'Reverse racism' seems to be misunderstood.
My idea of a definition is getting back the previous oppressors for being racist, by being racist.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.... SA want's ALL to be equal with equal rights, and equal opportunities. Now isn't this a double standard when you introduce systems such as AA and BEE?

Larrychang, I do understand the diff between bee and aa, but I categorize them under the same blanket of total BS.

You keep separating education and AA/BEE which is an extremely dangerous thing to do. The former is completely dependent on the latter and cannot be separated. Education is the preparation of leading a productive and knowledgeable life.

You cannot force a specific group into the work sector just because of their turbulent past... The economy and/or private work sector is an extremely fragile thing and needs to be run and managed by the best possible people, not the best candidate to fill a quota.

But each to their own I guess...

 

[RetroBok]

It is quite easier to talk like that, because more likely you were not disadvantaged. I fully support BEE/AA,

Just because people benefited from Apartheid does not make them advantaged. I'm white, I grew up in the 80's, I went to a governement school (at my parent's expense) and there is no way I was advantaged. My folks worked their wrinkly a55es off to put me through school, to clothe me, to see to it that I had a decent upbringing, but they had to scrimp and save and sacrifice one hell of a lot of things to ensure their kids got a decent beginning in life. In that way yes I was advantaged, my parents wanted to give us a good grounding in life so we could make successes of our lives. It had sweet **** all to do with apartheid. My parents were first generation South Africans, who came to South Africa in the 70's not because it was anti black or because of the governments policies but because South Africa was one of the most prosperous countries in the world at the time.

I believe that there is a particular race on mybb that "think they are superior to others and posses higher intelligence and are most suitably qualified in everything" and a particular race by their political choice or affiliation are either uneducated or brainwashed.

I believe there is a particular race on MYBB that think because they are of a particular race that they are entitled to everything the white man had during apartheid, regardless of whether the means by which they get this is racist or not. You can only go on blaming Apartheid for so long before people start getting bored of hearing this god awful excuse. In the beginning yes I'd agree apartheid had a lot to answer for and was rightly blamed but jeezuz wept 15 years after it was abolished we're getting people who weren't even around during apartheid blaming apartheid for things. If you went to school and your education was not sufficient take it up with the ruling party, not the "previously advantaged".

I may stand corrected here history was not one of my strong points at school. Apartheid "began" in 1948 which means it was around for about 46 years as a legal entity. (Yes I know there was discrimination before then however blame the actual countries that were colonial masters, not the residents). Apartheid has been gone since 94 which means it's been gone approximately 15 years which is a third of the length of the time it was around. Have things actually improved by a third? IMO no.

A child born in 94 in Mamelodi does not have the same privillages as one born in Sandton, I might not have been aware of Apartheid while growing up but moving to a big city like Pretoria to pursue my studies opened my eyes, we are just not the same, I had make an 8 kilometer walk to campus everyday, while my white counterparts drove to campus with cars that I'm still struggling to afford.

BS! A child in 94 will have been of a school going age 2000/2001 that's six years AFTER apartheid was effed, while his parents may not have been as wealthy as a Sandton resident (Mine weren't either just btw) he was or at least should have received the same education and rights as the Sandton kid. If people take umberance (sp) at that send a letter to the ANC or even better stop voting for the ****ers. Those people in Sandton worked for their money, my folks who worked too didn't have the same opportunities as they did to get wealthy. Should I blame apartheid for not letting my family be as rich as them? No... Aaaah shame you walked to campus, I used to have to catch the train because even though I was working part time around my studies I could never have afforded a car. My parents could not do so either do you know why? Because they were paying a loan off for me to attend Uni. I owned my first car here in the UK almost 10 years after finishing matric, and it wasn't brand new and it only cost £100 which I had to save for. Get a second job and work towards your goals.

Members(Not all) of a particular race group shoud really get over themselves, BBE/AA is here to stay and address the imbalances of the past.

Members of a particular race group should get over themselves and try understanding why members of another race group have issues with these policies. They don't affect me however they rile me up. I've said it before, AA in the UK is existant and guess what? It's fine. Why? Because people that are non-white are in the MINORITY in this country. I can live with that, however I will never return to SA when these policies exist. It is racism, the majority is hindering the progress of the minority. It's a viscious circle, while addressing the imbalances of the past you are alienating and discriminating against people who had bugger all to do with apartheid. Will there be AA/WEEE in 25 years time when these peoples children will actually have been disadvantaged because they could not get a job? I'm guessing no...

The Automatic presumption by a particular race that a black man in a high position is just for show should be done away with. Stop being selfish, as I've said in many of my previous posts, if you don't like the heat then do what others have done, otherwise life is going to be more and more unberable for you, you will wake up everyday being bitter about this country and rant on myBB.

The general consensus amongst the majority of the world population is that politicians are corrupt. Why? Because they prove us right time after time. Look at the expenses row here in the U.K at the moment. The general consensus of the majority of the world's population is that communism may not be all that great. Why? Well look throughout history, look at the human rights abuses in China etc. Now to my point. Yes I'm willing to bet that the majority of a particular race thinks that black men in high position is for show, it's blatantly evident in so many places so it's the norm. To find a "black man in a high place" who is there for the benefit of the company is the exception not the norm. Also dear sir you will find that people of all races find this. If we don't like the heat do what others have done? What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean leave the country? Fortunately I'm not there anymore so I've "already done what these people should do". But if that's what you are saying then sir you are the one that needs a big ****ing wake up call.

Yes people have a right to be bitter and a right to wake up feeling so, but there's a particular race, while they deserve to feel bitter, are bitter and are making the previously advantaged pay for it. Even those who had nothing to do with apartheid. How is that fair?

 

[revere007]

Just because people benefited from Apartheid does not make them advantaged. I'm white, I grew up in the 80's, I went to a governement school (at my parent's expense) and there is no way I was advantaged. My folks worked their wrinkly a55es off to put me through school, to clothe me, to see to it that I had a decent upbringing, but they had to scrimp and save and sacrifice one hell of a lot of things to ensure their kids got a decent beginning in life. In that way yes I was advantaged, my parents wanted to give us a good grounding in life so we could make successes of our lives. It had sweet **** all to do with apartheid. My parents were first generation South Africans, who came to South Africa in the 70's not because it was anti black or because of the governments policies but because South Africa was one of the most prosperous countries in the world at the time.


I believe there is a particular race on MYBB that think because they are of a particular race that they are entitled to everything the white man had during apartheid, regardless of whether the means by which they get this is racist or not. You can only go on blaming Apartheid for so long before people start getting bored of hearing this god awful excuse. In the beginning yes I'd agree apartheid had a lot to answer for and was rightly blamed but jeezuz wept 15 years after it was abolished we're getting people who weren't even around during apartheid blaming apartheid for things. If you went to school and your education was not sufficient take it up with the ruling party, not the "previously advantaged".

I may stand corrected here history was not one of my strong points at school. Apartheid "began" in 1948 which means it was around for about 46 years as a legal entity. (Yes I know there was discrimination before then however blame the actual countries that were colonial masters, not the residents). Apartheid has been gone since 94 which means it's been gone approximately 15 years which is a third of the length of the time it was around. Have things actually improved by a third? IMO no.


BS! A child in 94 will have been of a school going age 2000/2001 that's six years AFTER apartheid was effed, while his parents may not have been as wealthy as a Sandton resident (Mine weren't either just btw) he was or at least should have received the same education and rights as the Sandton kid. If people take umberance (sp) at that send a letter to the ANC or even better stop voting for the ****ers. Those people in Sandton worked for their money, my folks who worked too didn't have the same opportunities as they did to get wealthy. Should I blame apartheid for not letting my family be as rich as them? No... Aaaah shame you walked to campus, I used to have to catch the train because even though I was working part time around my studies I could never have afforded a car. My parents could not do so either do you know why? Because they were paying a loan off for me to attend Uni. I owned my first car here in the UK almost 10 years after finishing matric, and it wasn't brand new and it only cost £100 which I had to save for. Get a second job and work towards your goals.

Members(Not all) of a particular race group shoud really get over themselves, BBE/AA is here to stay and address the imbalances of the past.
[/qote]
Members of a particular race group should get over themselves and try understanding why members of another race group have issues with these policies. They don't affect me however they rile me up. I've said it before, AA in the UK is existant and guess what? It's fine. Why? Because people that are non-white are in the MINORITY in this country. I can live with that, however I will never return to SA when these policies exist. It is racism, the majority is hindering the progress of the minority. It's a viscious circle, while addressing the imbalances of the past you are alienating and discriminating against people who had bugger all to do with apartheid. Will there be AA/WEEE in 25 years time when these peoples children will actually have been disadvantaged because they could not get a job? I'm guessing no...



The general consensus amongst the majority of the world population is that politicians are corrupt. Why? Because they prove us right time after time. Look at the expenses row here in the U.K at the moment. The general consensus of the majority of the world's population is that communism may not be all that great. Why? Well look throughout history, look at the human rights abuses in China etc. Now to my point. Yes I'm willing to bet that the majority of a particular race thinks that black men in high position is for show, it's blatantly evident in so many places so it's the norm. To find a "black man in a high place" who is there for the benefit of the company is the exception not the norm. Also dear sir you will find that people of all races find this. If we don't like the heat do what others have done? What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean leave the country? Fortunately I'm not there anymore so I've "already done what these people should do". But if that's what you are saying then sir you are the one that needs a big ****ing wake up call.

Yes people have a right to be bitter and a right to wake up feeling so, but there's a particular race, while they deserve to feel bitter, are bitter and are making the previously advantaged pay for it. Even those who had nothing to do with apartheid. How is that fair?

Nice... +1

People seem to forget that our parents who were the guys behind Apartheid worked their A$$es off to make a living... Dude, my parents were NOT advantaged and my dad had to crawl on his hands and knees to earn the life we had.

I had to work hard at school as it was expected of me.

 

[LillPienkPawny]

You make some excellent point there man. Unfortunately the narrow-mindedness in these parts is so rife than people are missng the point of policy & its implementation and the good intentions of the policy.

I agree that AA/BEE are being abused by implementors at the altar of expediency & bonuses. The new ANC have said they take note of this problems and have undertaken to ensure that BEE especially benefits more than just a few elites.

The new ANC ?

To think that they will take action against the comrades that have abused and are still abusing the system ? , or maybe that was just a quick chance to buff their image ?

Education is the most important thing there is , taxing the rich and using that tax money to give quality free education to everyone not just previously disadvantaged is fair and creates an equal system to compete in.

Standardized quality free education should be offered to every single child in this country .If this was implemented from the start of '94 there would be no more reason for AA or BEE at the level where people are just starting out a career, as the pure number of educated black white coloured people applying for jobs at this time in their resepctive %'s of the population would sort out the system on its own , instead the new ANC decided not place this at the very top of their list of sorting out unjust actions from the past.

Now we are in a country where young people of all races are still a problem , black and coloured incompetant people are apointed that leads to poor service delivery or they are competant but are not given responsebilties for fear of them being incompetant wich leads them to become either lazy or feel worthless ( that being right back at apartheid ) and a leech on the system .Whites on the other hand are competant but cannot get a job due to them being advantaged ?( the very advantage that the other races should have recieved { Education } ) , again leading to a failed system of equal opertunity.

Creating opertunities for previously disadvantaged people is great , doing that at the expense of other is wrong.

Yes the whites do have an advantage and they will keep it for the forseeable future , but they should not be punished for working hard all their life to give their kids the best they can.

Saying 15 years is not enough to sort out the problems cuased by apartheid is lazyness speaking.

BEE/AA if implemented at the right place ( middle aged people , poor people ) would have worked at getting those people into suitable positions and enlarging the middle class by now as those are the people that suffered from apartheid and only those should have suffered , but the ANC chose to extend that suffering into the new South Africa and aprtheid is still alive due to them.

Its ironic how the very people that freed you , are keeping you down.

 

[STS]

Nice... +1

People seem to forget that our parents who were the guys behind Apartheid worked their A$$es off to make a living... Dude, my parents were NOT advantaged and my dad had to crawl on his hands and knees to earn the life we had.

I had to work hard at school as it was expected of me.

everyone did. and BEE is exactly the same, people shouldn't make out like students that get F's are given positions over students that get A's just becoz of skin colour, becoz i doubt it would have been like that even during Apartheid. BEE was a counter to Apartheid to get black people back into the business world

 

[dlk001]

people shouldn't make out like students that get F's are given positions over students that get A's just becoz of skin colour, becoz i doubt it would have been like that even during Apartheid. BEE was a counter to Apartheid to get black people back into the business world

Is there a policy on institutions that say students with F's are given positions over students that get A's because of skin color? Surely that is wrong and should not happen. Which institution(s) have such a policy?

 

[STS]

Is there a policy on institutions that say students with F's are given positions over students that get A's because of skin color? Surely that is wrong and should not happen. Which institution(s) have such a policy?

sorry, i mean in regard to BEE/AA people think dumber people get jobs over smarter people, when in fact they're equally qualified or both very good achievers.

there is a difference between BEE and giving a job to your special nephew Chuck

 

[revere007]

Last words on this thread....

BEE/AA Sucks just as bad as Apartheid did. The End.

 

[STS]

Last words on this thread....

BEE/AA Sucks just as bad as Apartheid did. The End.

i wouldn't go THAT far, but yeah, BEE is starting to suck

 

[mo_mia]

Last words on this thread....

BEE/AA Sucks just as bad as Apartheid did. The End.

Umm.. yeah. Right.

If you are a white male that is. Then yep, BEE/AA sucks for you more than Apartheid did.
The other 35 million people may disagree with your perspective though.