BEE/AA- Reverse Aprtheid.

[capetownguy]

Any comparison to apartheid is narrow-minded and seriously undermines the depth and breadth of the economic exclusion of the majority of the country for decades.

 

[R13...]

Nod, % wise if you want that answered blacks are 27.7% unemployed compared to whites at 5.3%.
and you empiricism, my comment was directed at Pilgrim's comment re, fairness of the tax system.

AA/BEE are imperatives in this country, I may agree with the way they are being implemented, but if you read their definitions you will see that they are good sensible policies given our history. And no education alone isn't going to address the inequalities of the past.

 

[Nod]

And no education alone isn't going to address the inequalities of the past.

Maybe, but is a pretty good start, or would have been. much better than forcing companies to employ people to fulfil some thumb suck persentage (aka "the ratio").

Education have always managed to uplift poor people more than giving them hand-outs. You know, the whole "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime". But then, providing education is too much work, it's easier to create paperwork (laws, etc).

 

[R13...]

Maybe, but is a pretty good start, or would have been. much better than forcing companies to employ people to fulfil some thumb suck persentage (aka "the ratio").

Education have always managed to uplift poor people more than giving them hand-outs. You know, the whole "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime". But then, providing education is too much work, it's easier to create paperwork (laws, etc).

Maybe AA has resulted in some total incompetents being put into jobs they are ill-qualified to do. But think how many capable candidates of colour would not have gotten jobs had it not been for AA. Mind you companies have no way of testing your competence if you present them with a qualification from a reputable institution of higher learning.

And I suspect asking someone fresh out of varsity about binary arithmetic isn't exactly a test of their competence. Besides, how many of could still do 2's complements straight out of varsity?

 

[TheHiveMind]

Nod, % wise if you want that answered blacks are 27.7% unemployed compared to whites at 5.3%.
and you empiricism, my comment was directed at Pilgrim's comment re, fairness of the tax system.

AA/BEE are imperatives in this country, I may agree with the way they are being implemented, but if you read their definitions you will see that they are good sensible policies given our history. And no education alone isn't going to address the inequalities of the past.

Yes, socialism looked good on paper too.

 

[Nod]

Maybe AA has resulted in some total incompetents being put into jobs they are ill-qualified to do.

Not only that, but think about how much productivity our country lost because of AA?

But think how many capable candidates of colour would not have gotten jobs had it not been for AA.

Why would they not have jobs? If they had the credentials for a job, they could get it. They would have had to compete for jobs with white and black equally.

Mind you companies have no way of testing your competence if you present them with a qualification from a reputable institution of higher learning.

And I suspect asking someone fresh out of varsity about binary arithmetic isn't exactly a test of their competence. Besides, how many of could still do 2's complements straight out of varsity?

There are lot of ways to test a potential employee. One way is to do a aptitude test, another to do a practical test in order to see how the applicant think. None of these test will require experience, as the think process is more important at an entry level.

 

[R13...]

Not only that, but think about how much productivity our country lost because of AA?

Why would they not have jobs? If they had the credentials for a job, they could get it. They would have had to compete for jobs with white and black equally.



There are lot of ways to test a potential employee. One way is to do a aptitude test, another to do a practical test in order to see how the applicant think. None of these test will require experience, as the think process is more important at an entry level.

So companies are to blame for hiring being incapable of doing the job.
The government never said hire incompetents, the policy is,

if two candidates meet the job requirements, then choose the black candidate, even if the white candidate may have some or other advantage over the black, so you see the person you hire must be capable of doing the job

A friend of mine was asked to train a [female] tech graduate at Eskom as part of their filling their women quotas & the woman was so clueless she didn't understand Ohm's law. Now tell me how she came through the interview, if you have ever been through an Eskom interview for a technical position you'd know what I mean.

 

[Kimosabe]

Its total racism.

How many jobs I've been turned away from because I am not Black.

 

[Nod]

So companies are to blame for hiring being incapable of doing the job.
The government never said hire incompetents, the policy is,

The policy is one thing, practice is another. What does a company do to get contracts from companies that specify 20% AA? They have to employ AA candidates. What do they do if they can't get qualified candidates? They employ incompetent people, but at least they get contracts.

See the problem with the BEE scorecard and AA requirements for contracts?

A friend of mine was asked to train a [female] tech graduate at Eskom as part of their filling their women quotas & the woman was so clueless she didn't understand Ohm's law. Now tell me how she came through the interview, if you have ever been through an Eskom interview for a technical position you'd know what I mean.

How many woman finish technical qualifications? Not many. So if they have to fulfil a quota, they have to start employing people that would not normally be employed.

A true occurrence at my company: 3 people were caught surfing porn. One black dude with no family, and two white guys with families and children. The white guys were let go immediately. The black guy was given a second chance, because the company struggles to find black people. Without the correct scorecard value, we can't get big contracts.

 

[phoneJunky]

Larry - I could do two's complement straight from school and so could the my whole computer programming class.

The other person should have known those questions as it was quite basic to his profession.

And no, I'm not white.

And if I flip the coin

My one friend could not get a job at a few jobs he applied to with a matriek. He didn't have any money to study, but our company put him on a bursary program to study engineering and he has his masters now and is very capable.

You could argue that the best person should have gotten the bursary and then my friend would still be unemployed.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

They (ANC) should with that type of “belief” get rid of BEE/AA and force people that won’t normally do the jobs into those jobs it would be just as fair as BEE/AA. Tell a black kid no sorry you may not study this “what ever” because there is too many blacks working in it so you must study to be a doctor. The ANC invented BEE/AA as a reverse communism scheme that is still technically wrong, yet I have no idea how the intellectual bunch or court could have allowed it because it is just in reverse.

 

[phoneJunky]

I think that there should be BEE/AA, but that it should not be implemented in the top structures.

For example, I would like to see BEE/AA in school sport but not on national level, there should be the best representing our country.

And, I also believe BEE/AA should be implemented at universities and not in companies.

I also think that a person should also become BEE uncompliant when he reaches a certain income bracket - he can't buy BEE shares etc.

 

[Phenom]

No, no no, it should not have ANYTHING to do with 'white' or 'black', it should have to do with personal and family history, for all races.

as to education we should rather provide FREE education to previously restricted, rather than base the actual marks on BEE, something which is blatantly absurd.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

Phonejunky tell me what the white kid must do with average gr12 marks that is a man I assume if he comes from poor family he is royal lie f*ckd because he is poor because the company cannot promote his dad because his dad is white and thus he cannot get scholarship but is smart enough to do well at university? Justify that.

BEE in sport and education or work, are you mad? Give me explanations to why and not just opinions.

 

[phoneJunky]

First of all, when I was speaking of BEE in education, I meant bursary allocation to the previously disadvantaged.
Free university/college is never going to happen anytime soon.

Then in my "world", you are not BEE compliant if your family earns more than 4000 a month.
It has to be BEE and not EE cause the government demography in everything the same as the demography of the country.
(I personally have no problem with EE, most people will be black in any case.)
In "my world" the white father can get a promotion because it (BEE) is not implemented at work. And he could get a bursary because bursaries because not all bursaries will be given to BEE compliant students.
All universities have a minimum requirement that you need to obtain to go to the institution.

BEE/AA in sport on school level is just to help people with talent without the resources to be future stars.
Their are allot of national players who would never have reached their full potential.
Look at the cricket, they had more people of colour than was required because they were in the team because of merit. And that had allot to do with what was implemented. With the sport in school level.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

Do you even know what it is? BEE/AA in sport is for a black kid in a white school to be placed on the team if the team has 30 spots and 34 people sign up and the best one was a white(by chance) one and now the black one takes the last spot for being black, you are thinking of something way different and I'm also in favor of helping other previously disadvantaged but not at the expense of others and their fairness based on color.
What about some one that is white and has to work a low income job to save up for studying like a waiter, now because the shop all ready has 20% whites now they wait for blacks and yet months on end go by that no blacks joined and the ones that did got fired for not having the merit and only a few joined that did have the merit to be a waiter and now there is still space left and the white guy can't find a job in his area and there are only space left for blacks but no one is joining. (justify that)

Why can it not be first come first serve?
I have no problem with black nor that they get jobs but stealing it because of their colour I feel raped of my freedom in that sense.

Also remember that a black person has a better chance than a colord as well and it is not only whites being discriminated against but the colord also have a better chance than a white male.

BEE/AA might not be as bad as apartheid but is still wrong and it's just as wrong as being a racist.

 

[news24]

Personally I think denying someone of a job that they are qualified for based on their skin colour is pathetic. If you got the skills you deserve the job regardless of colour.

This whole BEE/AA is a load of horse Sh*t, get rid of it, but they wont because our "new" government is getting back at the whites. Sad but true.

It is quite easier to talk like that, because more likely you were not disadvantaged. I fully support BEE/AA,

And to the idiots who call BBE/AA reverse racism, here is a definition of racism

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

I believe that there is a particular race on mybb that "think they are superior to others and posses higher intelligence and are most suitably qualified in everything" and a particular race by their political choice or affiliation are either uneducated or brainwashed.

A child born in 94 in Mamelodi does not have the same privillages as one born in Sandton, I might not have been aware of Apartheid while growing up but moving to a big city like Pretoria to pursue my studies opened my eyes, we are just not the same, I had make an 8 kilometer walk to campus everyday, while my white counterparts drove to campus with cars that I'm still struggling to afford.

Members(Not all) of a particular race group shoud really get over themselves, BBE/AA is here to stay and address the imbalances of the past. The Automatic presumption by a particular race that a black man in a high position is just for show should be done away with. Stop being selfish, as I've said in many of my previous posts, if you don't like the heat then do what others have done, otherwise life is going to be more and more unberable for you, you will wake up everyday being bitter about this country and rant on myBB.

 

[phoneJunky]

As I tried explaining in my earlier posts, I am also not in favour of a person getting the job based on their skin colour.

I said that black people need to be empowered with education, but how do you get get people to study at university and could not get a qaulity education.

In sport this "education" is conditioning/training.

I think BEE as it is implemented is wrong and is being abused - but you have to make allowance for a person you wants to be trained and can't simply because he can't afford it.

As I said, it could just be EE too and institutions could be helping the people in a family earning less than a certain amount.

I do agree that the best person for the job should get the job.

I do know a few capable people that could not go study what they wanted because they could not afford it.
I also remember they doing much better than me in school than me, till I went to a previously model C school.

A friend of mine thinks that you should not aim to high in life but you should rather focus on making life easier for you're children for them to be in a position to go study.

I think that if you are capable and you can't afford it there must still be a way of achieving that goal.
(Sound almost like the american- uhm south african dream).

I think that most people will do worse in most public schools because of the culture in the schools.
How can you learn in a school where half of the time the teachers have to sort out the gang related activities on school and being unable to teach.

If we could have free quality education in this country then everything would be fine, but I don't see that happening soon.
At my fathers school people struggle to pay the 20 school fees for the year (although, to me it looks like they should be able to pay it).

 

[Grimspoon]

It is quite easier to talk like that, because more likely you were not disadvantaged. I fully support BEE/AA,

And to the idiots who call BBE/AA reverse racism, here is a definition of racism


I believe that there is a particular race on mybb that "think they are superior to others and posses higher intelligence and are most suitably qualified in everything" and a particular race by their political choice or affiliation are either uneducated or brainwashed.

A child born in 94 in Mamelodi does not have the same privillages as one born in Sandton, I might not have been aware of Apartheid while growing up but moving to a big city like Pretoria to pursue my studies opened my eyes, we are just not the same, I had make an 8 kilometer walk to campus everyday, while my white counterparts drove to campus with cars that I'm still struggling to afford.

Members(Not all) of a particular race group shoud really get over themselves, BBE/AA is here to stay and address the imbalances of the past. The Automatic presumption by a particular race that a black man in a high position is just for show should be done away with. Stop being selfish, as I've said in many of my previous posts, if you don't like the heat then do what others have done, otherwise life is going to be more and more unberable for you, you will wake up everyday being bitter about this country and rant on myBB.

Agreed I was not "disadvantaged", but my parents worked dam hard to give me a good life, it wasn’t handed to them on a platter. I am lucky I know that and have never taken that for granted.
It sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder and more like you the one that’s bitter. Simply put and I will say it again; giving someone a job based purely on their skin colour (regardless of if they are white, black or coloured) is ridiculous. When buildings start collapsing because the engineer in charge was given the position based on his colour and not skill set, then don’t asks any questions why.

 

[revere007]

BEE...AA...BBEEE... It's all a bunch of **** that has caused our economy and quality of service delivery to suffer.

I say Best man for the job. If the PDI's want to have a part of the system then they must send their children to school and universities.

:-(... shame, poor guys, don't you just feel for them?

I was a kid when the new SA was born, had NOTHING to do with apartheid, so why must a new potential job be given to poor Sipho who matriculated with me at the same school and year?

It's reverse racism no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise.