BEE/AA- Reverse Aprtheid.

[RetroBok]

Umm.. yeah. Right.

If you are a white male that is. Then yep, BEE/AA sucks for you more than Apartheid did.
The other 35 million people may disagree with your perspective though.

Not sure which side of the AA/BEE coin your affiliations lie however the bolded bit is why it's racist.
Were white males (All of them? Seriously?) responsible for all the ills of apartheid? What of those women involved? What of those people who spied for the Apartheid regime who were of colour? What of those countries who helped finance the SA governement in those times? What of those countries who sat back and let apartheid happen? Are they ALL going to be punished?

 

[mo_mia]

Not sure which side of the AA/BEE coin your affiliations lie however the bolded bit is why it's racist.
Were white males (All of them? Seriously?) responsible for all the ills of apartheid? What of those women involved? What of those people who spied for the Apartheid regime who were of colour? What of those countries who helped finance the SA governement in those times? What of those countries who sat back and let apartheid happen? Are they ALL going to be punished?

My comment is aimed only at the statement suggesting that it is as bad as Apartheid.

It shows the common ignorance regarding the effects of Aprtheid, that is usually spouted by people who were either too young to experience it, or just experienced it from the 'white side'.

My feelings on BEE/AA are complex and confused at times. I'll go into more detail when I have time. The summary is: I do not advocate it in it's current form, nor am I blind to why some form of it is necessary.

What I do observe in your post though reflects my comments on perspective. You, who I assume is a white male, sees AA/BEE as a mechanism to punish whites. That's a perspective which in my opinion is seriously flawed and does not allow for proper, empathetic reasoning.

 

[R13...]

Not sure which side of the AA/BEE coin your affiliations lie however the bolded bit is why it's racist.
Were white males (All of them? Seriously?) responsible for all the ills of apartheid? What of those women involved? What of those people who spied for the Apartheid regime who were of colour? What of those countries who helped finance the SA governement in those times? What of those countries who sat back and let apartheid happen? Are they ALL going to be punished?

AA/BEE are not punishment!
You do realise that much, right? Those who feel wronged by companies that supported apartheid are busy suing a bunch of companies in the US, but the government has nothing to do with it.

 

[RetroBok]

My comment is aimed only at the statement suggesting that it is as bad as Apartheid.

No it's not as bad as apartheid. But it's not the correct way to remedy the ills of the past.

It shows the common ignorance regarding the effects of Aprtheid, that is usually spouted by people who were either too young to experience it, or just experienced it from the 'white side'.

Not too young, but did experience it from the white side, however I was too young to be one of those that sanctioned apartheid. As were millions of others. Why should they suffer?

My feelings on BEE/AA are complex and confused at times. I'll go into more detail when I have time. The summary is: I do not advocate it in it's current form, nor am I blind to why some form of it is necessary.

Yes some form of BBE/AA is necessary, but not in it's current form.

What I do observe in your post though reflects my comments on perspective. You, who I assume is a white male, sees AA/BEE as a mechanism to punish whites. That's a perspective which in my opinion is seriously flawed and does not allow for proper, empathetic reasoning.

Yes and no to a degree, it is a form of punishment. There are millions of people who were kids in that time who had eff all to do with the implementation of apartheid are now "jobseekers" who because their skin is white are being over looked.

AA/BEE are not punishment!
You do realise that much, right? Those who feel wronged by companies that supported apartheid are busy suing a bunch of companies in the US, but the government has nothing to do with it.

It is punishment in my perspective. Yes I've heard there are people suing U.S. companies, but what of those U.K companies, what of those SA companies, what of the people who spied for the regime? The government won't have anything to do with it. It's in their best interests not to. Why shoot a potential cash cow?

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

So what should a 20year old white male do living with extremely poor white parents. I don't have 40k to go study for IT and that’s the cheap place.

I don’t have a car I worked at a take away since I was 16 to save up for a bike and my petrol, clothing, food, and other stuff. I only got the job because luckily they had to hire a white because the entire kitchen was black and this was the only job of walking distance. I worked as a waiter when I had my bike.

So now at my I got the job as a entry broker building up my points and writing exams and test at a almost all black company even my boss is black but he felt sorry for me and gave me the job over the other black candidates, so now I'm saving up for my own studies and paying my own bills thanks to the only none selfish black guy that also thinks BEE/AA is a waste, I don't know where
I would have been without him today mostly likely saving up as a waiter and studying Ebooks In IT. My marks are a mere 1% away from getting a scholarship but I still would not have had the money to drive so far to go and study or buy a car because it is a killer in the winter with a bike and other factors.

Most companies that pay reasonable for a just matriculated person are BEE/AA to the max and for me to get above the entry level with no money is like working two life times harder than normal. I worked where I am today and I almost have enough money for a car and to pay for my after ours studies. The only problem is that the nearest place for me to study is BEE/AA compliant and now I need to write exams from an overseas uni at a local marking center, just paying for the exams because I had gotten the study materials on my own.

Then also my dad where he works he has been offered a promotion because he is the best in his company for that position only to be told the colored leaving in his place means they lose their status quo so now he must wait and his credentials can't possibly be matched but now a black guy that just joined the company can get it, how is that fair. My dad grew up with both his parents killed and my mother's parents neglected her and abused her.

I was born in 1989 so I was five when apartheid had ended watching how Mandela get out of jail and everyone was making a big fuss and I did not even know about what. Little should I have known that day marked the day where I had to climb mountains to get to where I am today?

I also went to school where the rich kids drove their expensive cars and had the best clothing and private tutoring at home and it was a public school where I had the bare minimum, as much as the black kids struggled in their schools me and my black friends and other poor friends hanged out wondering why these rich kids are so rude and disrespectful towards us as if we are dirt to them. I never looked at people because of their material status or skin color and I accepted everyone but the rich snobbish people or jocks because they had *****y attitudes towards people.

You try and justify BEE/AA by the masses even if it as at the expense of the few but the real flaw is every HUAMAN is unique and should have his own freedom and it cannot be justified by the masses because every single life is precious in this world and people fail to see that.


I fully agree with the point of needing to fix the past but why can we not have a system to help all the poor instead?

 

[dlk001]

BEE is purely another business deal that will always benefit and enrich the two business parties. It has created and will continue creating rich black people who will join the elite group that has been dominated by white people. It will never enrich the so called masses because business deals hardly archive that.

The transformation of the general population and/or so called masses will happen at school through Broad Based Education Empowerment and work place through Broad Based Skills Development. Affirmative Action is integral to the transformation process in my experience and view.

We are so good at setting BEE targets, scorecards, codes of practices etc. If we applied the same tenacity and resources to education and training, everyone would benefit in the end.

 

[RetroBok]

BEE is purely another business deal that will always benefit and enrich the two business parties. It has created and will continue creating rich black people who will join the elite group that has been dominated by white people. It will never enrich the so called masses because business deals hardly archive that.

The transformation of the general population and/or so called masses will happen at school through Broad Based Education Empowerment and work place through Broad Based Skills Development. Affirmative Action is integral to the transformation process in my experience and view.

We are so good at setting BEE targets, scorecards, codes of practices etc. If we applied the same tenacity and resources to education and training, everyone would benefit in the end.

There you go!

 

[revere007]

BEE is purely another business deal that will always benefit and enrich the two business parties. It has created and will continue creating rich black people who will join the elite group that has been dominated by white people. It will never enrich the so called masses because business deals hardly archive that.

The transformation of the general population and/or so called masses will happen at school through Broad Based Education Empowerment and work place through Broad Based Skills Development. Affirmative Action is integral to the transformation process in my experience and view.

We are so good at setting BEE targets, scorecards, codes of practices etc. If we applied the same tenacity and resources to education and training, everyone would benefit in the end.

^What he said^

 

[capetownguy]

BEE/AA Sucks just as bad as Apartheid did. /QUOTE]

It doesn't even begin to come close to Apartheid.

 

[R13...]

BEE/AA Sucks just as bad as Apartheid did.

It doesn't even begin to come close to Apartheid.

I think you will find ignorance, narrow-mindedness & immaturity abound around when it comes to this country's history! maybe a visit to the apartheid museum may help some of the youngsters with a start... and that'd only be a beginning.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

We know it is not apartheid but does it make it fair? Does any violation in human rights make any thing fair, no?

Just because it is not as bad does not give it the right to exist?
The only thing BEE/AA is doing is enriching black elites or give the chance for black elites and there are also white elites getting a bonus in this because they can now start a company and get money from the government and to run it they get tax reduction, what about us poor whites and blacks, us poor white guys must work extra hard and the poor blacks also can't benefit much from BEE/AA because they also need funding to start but so do we poor whites... I really don't see how making some people poor to give others in their place chance will solve any thing other than keeping the same amount of people poor but just chaining the color... why don't we have a system for all the poor hey???

 

[R13...]

We know it is not apartheid but does it make it fair? Does any violation in human rights make any thing fair, no?
why don't we have a system for all the poor hey???

the poor are on welfare, all of them not just black ones!

you would be a fool to think that without AA/BEE our society would out of the goodness of their hearts give everyone equal opportunity. some predujices need to be legislated away, otherwise nothing is going to change.

note how where not required by law most white companies continue to favour white candidates over black ones. at times you'd phone up for an interview & only be told the position is filled when they realise you are not white. this is more rife in the rental business.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

So why not have a "home affairs for CVs" Your company give a document stating the requiments and best candidates they want then this "middle man" will pick the best one and your company can not say no because of his color and they can not fire or dismiss him because they need reasons and so and so. I also feel to many racist in the work place but rather force companies to take people on merit trough a middle man than on color with out merit. Then a black person who makes it in can be respected because he kicked ass fairly.

Companies use agencies to find their candidates they might as well have a government one specializing in hiring them as well don't you think and the agency can have the people come in and sit down give their speech and what not and decide for the company.

 

[RetroBok]

the poor are on welfare, all of them not just black ones!

you would be a fool to think that without AA/BEE our society would out of the goodness of their hearts give everyone equal opportunity. some predujices need to be legislated away, otherwise nothing is going to change.

note how where not required by law most white companies continue to favour white candidates over black ones. at times you'd phone up for an interview & only be told the position is filled when they realise you are not white. this is more rife in the rental business.

Dude, seriously BEE/AA is not the way to go, however a body that monitors the ethnicity of companies is. Look at the UK companies are obliged to give out forms when you start to indicate your ethnicity, while not obliged to fill them in it's law for the companies to hand them out. Why? So he government can monitor... No one feels hard done by and if they do feel hard done by then they make a complaint and then the onus is on the company to prove they are being fair and equal...Stop with the previously disadvantaged crap now... Those people who benefited are in their 40s/50s/60s. They're going to retire soon anyway, and can be a good source of education... Instead of making them unemployed rather employ them as mentors.

 

[Empiricism Philosopher]

Those people who benefited are in their 40s/50s/60s. They're going to retire soon anyway, and can be a good source of education... Instead of making them unemployed rather employ them as mentors.

It is the kiddies of these guys that are selfish that all it is and now they try and justify it.