Brakpan FTTH - 123Net

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
Not necessarily the best value. Go see DFA, Frogfoot, even Telkom.
DFA doesn't offer FTTH. Telkom has a monthly rental charge. Don't know what Frogfoot has but so far 123 is the only one with a free internet option I've seen. That is a requirement when some people won't be able to afford the monthly options. The others also usually has a cap of some sorts for the low end options.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
I contacted the Herald. They charge R15069.32 for distribution. Printing the flyers will cost another R2508. A full page ad is R21198.53 and a half page is R10871.04. We don't need more than about a quarter page or less. The upside is we don't need to have any flyers printed for an ad and it can't get lost so that would be about half of the price already. I don't know of any other options that would work out cheaper.

If we go the ad route are there people that would be willing to contribute?
 

Slaught3r

Expert Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
3,185
I contacted the Herald. They charge R15069.32 for distribution. Printing the flyers will cost another R2508. A full page ad is R21198.53 and a half page is R10871.04. We don't need more than about a quarter page or less. The upside is we don't need to have any flyers printed for an ad and it can't get lost so that would be about half of the price already. I don't know of any other options that would work out cheaper.

If we go the ad route are there people that would be willing to contribute?

Happy to help where I can. Seems a bit pricey for a small publication... :(

I spoke to DFA (they have fibre running down Heidelberg road straight past the mall) and they are willing to trench and help me with 25Mb uncapped unshaped fibre. It is extremely costly though (more than my bond per month). Doubt the missus will fall for that one. :D
 

Alkine

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
665
DFA doesn't offer FTTH. Telkom has a monthly rental charge. Don't know what Frogfoot has but so far 123 is the only one with a free internet option I've seen. That is a requirement when some people won't be able to afford the monthly options. The others also usually has a cap of some sorts for the low end options.

DFA is submitting a proposal for FTTH for our community driven fibre initiative, so their tune may have changed on this front. Frogfoot has been bought by Vox.

123 is not the best value for money, and their free option is only for 2 years max. This is a scheme to get you on one of their higher costing packages. Their 10 Mbps option costs R800 p/m, more than most people spend on internet. Greencom offers that same package for R100 less. Vumatel has options of R200 and R350 for 4 Mbps capped which is good since many households don't spend that much on internet a month (from what I have seen through our survey).

From my experience utilizing existing e-mail channels is 100 times more effective than flyers or newspaper articles. One resident in my area put it really well. He said handing out 100 flyers was as effective as chatting with someone for 5 minutes.

I would try and locate the ward councilor, they usually have e-mail distribution lists for the area.
 

Slaught3r

Expert Member
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
3,185
I contacted the Herald. They charge R15069.32 for distribution. Printing the flyers will cost another R2508. A full page ad is R21198.53 and a half page is R10871.04. We don't need more than about a quarter page or less. The upside is we don't need to have any flyers printed for an ad and it can't get lost so that would be about half of the price already. I don't know of any other options that would work out cheaper.

If we go the ad route are there people that would be willing to contribute?

Have a look here: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...fibre-anywhere-on-Dark-Fibre-from-SaFibre-com
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
Happy to help where I can. Seems a bit pricey for a small publication... :(

I spoke to DFA (they have fibre running down Heidelberg road straight past the mall) and they are willing to trench and help me with 25Mb uncapped unshaped fibre. It is extremely costly though (more than my bond per month). Doubt the missus will fall for that one. :D
I can't believe that's the price they have set with the main advertisers. I will try to get them to budge. So far haven't received any further response from them. Like they aren't even interested that we are doing this. Seems it's become a real money driven publication.

Yeah DFA is really expensive as they don't have consumer packages. If they connect a block/estate of houses they have to submit a custom package which I think is a rather disorganised way of doing things instead of having a set price.

Yup I saw that.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
DFA is submitting a proposal for FTTH for our community driven fibre initiative, so their tune may have changed on this front. Frogfoot has been bought by Vox.

123 is not the best value for money, and their free option is only for 2 years max. This is a scheme to get you on one of their higher costing packages. Their 10 Mbps option costs R800 p/m, more than most people spend on internet. Greencom offers that same package for R100 less. Vumatel has options of R200 and R350 for 4 Mbps capped which is good since many households don't spend that much on internet a month (from what I have seen through our survey).

From my experience utilizing existing e-mail channels is 100 times more effective than flyers or newspaper articles. One resident in my area put it really well. He said handing out 100 flyers was as effective as chatting with someone for 5 minutes.

I would try and locate the ward councilor, they usually have e-mail distribution lists for the area.
I wouldn't know what is more effective. One thing I won't be doing is wasting time talking to people that will mostly not be interested. Can hand out 20 flyers in the time of a 5 minute talk. I looked at the other providers and none offer what 123net does. Their free option isn't for 2 years only but guaranteed for at least 2 years. Even if it was it works out to R150 for a 5 Mbps connection. Vumatel's options look good at first sight to get you to bite but unless you take their high end options they really aren't. Most people who indicate that a capped connection is enough for them soon find out however it isn't. Fibre should be uncapped.
 

Alkine

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
665
I wouldn't know what is more effective. One thing I won't be doing is wasting time talking to people that will mostly not be interested. Can hand out 20 flyers in the time of a 5 minute talk. I looked at the other providers and none offer what 123net does. Their free option isn't for 2 years only but guaranteed for at least 2 years. Even if it was it works out to R150 for a 5 Mbps connection. Vumatel's options look good at first sight to get you to bite but unless you take their high end options they really aren't. Most people who indicate that a capped connection is enough for them soon find out however it isn't. Fibre should be uncapped.

If a 10 Mbps uncapped option costs R800 p/m then I can guarantee a 5 Mbps uncapped option will not cost R150 p/m. Especially since the line speed and data cost almost nothing compared to the line cost. A 5 Mbps fibre is exactly the same as a 1000 Mbps fibre. The majority of the cost you pay is them recouping the cost of installing the infrastructure.

Vumatel used to give free 4 Mbps, but they stopped that because everyone took that option instead of paying (for anything). People's needs also differ, not everyone needs uncapped. I stay in an area where the average household income is above R60k p/m with home values averaging R3M (the same as Pankhurst), and you would be amazed to see how many people spend less than R100 p/m on internet. Some people require 1 GB per month to read their e-mail. Some require 20 GB per month browsing a few website and watching a video here or there. Some stream video on demand and require a 200 GB cap. Others download everything they can get their hands on and require an uncapped account. Everyone's needs are different, and a fibre provider in a suburb has to accommodate all of them.

During the course of our initiative I have spoken to about 7/8 different fibre providers. Most put the raw cost of a single port at between R200 to R300 p/m, without any services running on it. The smaller the area and the less the uptake the higher that base cost is.

If a it takes you 5 minutes to distribute 20 flyers to which no-one responds, vs 5 minutes to talk to someone who does, then I would say the talking option is more effective both in time and cost. I'm telling you what is working for us in Lynnwood (currently at over 360 shows of interest in an area of about 2000 people). I distributed 7500 flyers and got about 50 reposes through that (cost me approx R6k). Our ward councilor sent out 2 e-mails and we got about 180 responses through that channel (cost me exactly R0). Spoke to 10 people in an hour, got 8 of them to complete the survey (cost me exactly R0). If I had paid 10 students R500 for a day to knock on each door in the neighbourhood and have a chat with the residents about fibre I would have had more signups than distributing those flyers. Word of mouth is the best way, because people trust someone they can see, someone they know, someone from the same area. It is slow but it is effective.

I'm trying to share information so that others can learn from my experiences, you have to carve your own path.
 
Last edited:

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
If a 10 Mbps uncapped option costs R800 p/m then I can guarantee a 5 Mbps uncapped option will not cost R150 p/m. Especially since the line speed and data cost almost nothing compared to the line cost. A 5 Mbps fibre is exactly the same as a 1000 Mbps fibre. The majority of the cost you pay is them recouping the cost of installing the infrastructure.
You can't guarantee that. I said years ago we can have fibre for under R300 and now it is finally happening so I know a bit about this. The 10 Mbps connection is actually 1000 Mbps local. Show any other provider offering that. Not that they can't as there's really nothing preventing that but they just don't care to. If you go with the 10 Mbps local option it's R449. In time there will be custom options and I hope these will be in between the free and paid options as I'm looking for something along the lines of R250.

Vumatel used to give free 4 Mbps, but they stopped that because everyone took that option instead of paying (for anything). People's needs also differ, not everyone needs uncapped. I stay in an area where the average household income is above R60k p/m with home values averaging R3M (the same as Pankhurst), and you would be amazed to see how many people spend less than R100 p/m on internet. Some people require 1 GB per month to read their e-mail. Some require 20 GB per month browsing a few website and watching a video here or there. Some stream video on demand and require a 200 GB cap. Others download everything they can get their hands on and require an uncapped account. Everyone's needs are different, and a fibre provider in a suburb has to accommodate all of them.

During the course of our initiative I have spoken to about 7/8 different fibre providers. Most put the raw cost of a single port at between R200 to R300 p/m, without any services running on it. The smaller the area and the less the uptake the higher that base cost is.
No, Vumatel lost the free usage front because they had no option that suited everybody's needs. If it's between free and expensive internet most people will choose free. From the looks of it 123net at least know this and has options to suit more people.

My point on the usage was that once people get fibre or adsl their usage increases. It may not be across the board but it happens often. So you have people on a cap and they have to keep upgrading. Soon the value proposition is no longer there and this is when people choose between free and expensive internet with no option in between. Caps just confuse things and we are one of the few countries that still have them for fibre and adsl.

If a it takes you 5 minutes to distribute 20 flyers to which no-one responds, vs 5 minutes to talk to someone who does, then I would say the talking option is more effective both in time and cost. I'm telling you what is working for us in Lynnwood (currently at over 360 shows of interest in an area of about 2000 people). I distributed 7500 flyers and got about 50 reposes through that (cost me approx R6k). Our ward councilor sent out 2 e-mails and we got about 180 responses through that channel (cost me exactly R0). Spoke to 10 people in an hour, got 8 of them to complete the survey (cost me exactly R0). If I had paid 10 students R500 for a day to knock on each door in the neighbourhood and have a chat with the residents about fibre I would have had more signups than distributing those flyers. Word of mouth is the best way, because people trust someone they can see, someone they know, someone from the same area. It is slow but it is effective.

I'm trying to share information so that others can learn from my experiences, you have to carve your own path.
No you misunderstood. A personal message gets me about 2-3 signups for 30-40 invitations. Someone on here posted that going around talking to people yields exactly that. It may be dependent on the area but it seems a 10% response rate is more or less the norm. Now if I have to chat to 40 people to get 3 signups I would rather spend 10 minutes distributing flyers to get the same.

I don't think there's any superior option unless you are specifically targeting people that are interested. It's hard to gauge interest and some people are still coming late to the party like the 4 who registered last week without me doing anything. If I had a ward councilor send emails I would have counted those towards the responses. Here and there a few people are interested in promoting it to their friends but it takes time to filter through. Interest picks up by itself as it goes along. It's false to attribute that to the options you used last.
 

jackshiels

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
1,778
DFA doesn't offer FTTH. Telkom has a monthly rental charge. Don't know what Frogfoot has but so far 123 is the only one with a free internet option I've seen. That is a requirement when some people won't be able to afford the monthly options. The others also usually has a cap of some sorts for the low end options.

DFA do provide FTTH. See Parkview.

123Net are much more expensive than any of the other providers. Frogfoot, Fibrehoods and DFA have the best pricing. Anyone who wants higher than 10Mb will be paying through the nose with 123Net. for R900 on Frogfoot or DFA you can get 50Mb with 400GB and 25Mb upload.

123Net are a crippling option unless they go open access.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
DFA do provide FTTH. See Parkview.

123Net are much more expensive than any of the other providers. Frogfoot, Fibrehoods and DFA have the best pricing. Anyone who wants higher than 10Mb will be paying through the nose with 123Net. for R900 on Frogfoot or DFA you can get 50Mb with 400GB and 25Mb upload.

123Net are a crippling option unless they go open access.
I said they do but they don't offer it. Everywhere they provide a proposal they have to work out an attractive pricing rather than having standard pricing. If you simply go with DFA they will provide it to you if they have a node nearby but at business rates because they don't have a FTTH offering.

I looked at the other providers throughout and they aren't better. At 50 Mbps you are going to go through that 400GB cap in no time once you discover Youtube 4k or get IPTV. 123net is already future proof for all of that. Their 50 Mbps is R1499 but includes 1000Mbps local. Again show me which other provider offers 1000 Mbps local and what they charge for it. Without the local it would probably be ~R900 for a 50 Mbps symmetric uncapped connection.
 

Alkine

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
665
You can't guarantee that. I said years ago we can have fibre for under R300 and now it is finally happening so I know a bit about this. The 10 Mbps connection is actually 1000 Mbps local. Show any other provider offering that. Not that they can't as there's really nothing preventing that but they just don't care to. If you go with the 10 Mbps local option it's R449. In time there will be custom options and I hope these will be in between the free and paid options as I'm looking for something along the lines of R250.

No, Vumatel lost the free usage front because they had no option that suited everybody's needs. If it's between free and expensive internet most people will choose free. From the looks of it 123net at least know this and has options to suit more people.

My point on the usage was that once people get fibre or adsl their usage increases. It may not be across the board but it happens often. So you have people on a cap and they have to keep upgrading. Soon the value proposition is no longer there and this is when people choose between free and expensive internet with no option in between. Caps just confuse things and we are one of the few countries that still have them for fibre and adsl.

Fibre is competitive from 10 Mbps up, below 10 Mbps prices are much closer to ADSL. I'm not sure how someone can sell a service for R300 if just the line portion of that costs them the entire R300. Then they are selling a service at a loss. I also don't know where you get those packages from 123Net from. The packages I can see on their website is 10 Mbps for R800, or 5 Mbps free for at least 2 years. Again nothing in between, a big gap. I have been in contact with 22 fibre providers for the Lynnwood Fibre Initiative, and 123Net has been on the more expensive side of those 22. Vumatel has packages from R200 and up, so that bridges the gap very nicely countering your own argument against their free option.

The cost of service boils down to 3 portions.
1. The cost of installing the infrastructure (this is the largest part) and their repayments on that cost.
2. The cost of data on this line.
3. The cost of connecting to a exchange (Terraco, whatever) at a certain speed through the backhaul.

Now if item 1 is the majority of those 3 components (notice how there is no data, and no speed associated with that), then that is the absolute minimum they can charge. I will say again, from my talks with the fibre providers in our area, they claim that cost to their company to be at the very least R200 p/m, sometimes R300 p/m. That is without data. The line speed here is what they limit you to on their network, which cost exactly the same to install weather everyone has a 1 Gbps fibre to their home of a 4 Mbps fibre to their home (because the fibre is the same fibre, and the cost is in getting that fibre to your door).

I'm not sure what is so amazing about the local option but if that is what you want then great. It is still not for everyone. Sure people's usage increases over time, however it does not start out that way when they move to fibre, and to get them to fibre you have to compete with what they are currently using and paying for, not what they will be using in 2 years time. Their pockets are aligned with what they are spending right now, they don't know what the future will hold.

No you misunderstood. A personal message gets me about 2-3 signups for 30-40 invitations. Someone on here posted that going around talking to people yields exactly that. It may be dependent on the area but it seems a 10% response rate is more or less the norm. Now if I have to chat to 40 people to get 3 signups I would rather spend 10 minutes distributing flyers to get the same.

I don't think there's any superior option unless you are specifically targeting people that are interested. It's hard to gauge interest and some people are still coming late to the party like the 4 who registered last week without me doing anything. If I had a ward councilor send emails I would have counted those towards the responses. Here and there a few people are interested in promoting it to their friends but it takes time to filter through. Interest picks up by itself as it goes along. It's false to attribute that to the options you used last.

I did not misunderstand anything, I'm telling you what we are experiencing in my suburb. The point I'm making is that you will not get the same from flyers as talking or via email, not by a long shot. In my experience email and talking to people were way superior to flyers. This is my experience, don't use it if you don't want to. I'm trying to save you money, why I don't know.
 

Alkine

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
665
I said they do but they don't offer it. Everywhere they provide a proposal they have to work out an attractive pricing rather than having standard pricing. If you simply go with DFA they will provide it to you if they have a node nearby but at business rates because they don't have a FTTH offering.

I looked at the other providers throughout and they aren't better. At 50 Mbps you are going to go through that 400GB cap in no time once you discover Youtube 4k or get IPTV. 123net is already future proof for all of that. Their 50 Mbps is R1499 but includes 1000Mbps local. Again show me which other provider offers 1000 Mbps local and what they charge for it. Without the local it would probably be ~R900 for a 50 Mbps symmetric uncapped connection.

You forget that the 50 Mbps for the other providers can be local or international. The only difference is that the 123Net local has greater speed, otherwise it is exactly the same.

From the greencom pricing list I copy their uncapped unshaped prices:
10 Mbps: R684
25 Mbps: R994
50 Mbps: R1350
100 Mbps: R2000

Please reference the 123Net prices and options that you are quoting, I cannot find them on their website (https://123net.co.za/en/front/areas/plans). I see only 2 options, 10 for R800 and 1000 for R2000.
 

Alkine

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
665
I said they do but they don't offer it. Everywhere they provide a proposal they have to work out an attractive pricing rather than having standard pricing. If you simply go with DFA they will provide it to you if they have a node nearby but at business rates because they don't have a FTTH offering.

I looked at the other providers throughout and they aren't better. At 50 Mbps you are going to go through that 400GB cap in no time once you discover Youtube 4k or get IPTV. 123net is already future proof for all of that. Their 50 Mbps is R1499 but includes 1000Mbps local. Again show me which other provider offers 1000 Mbps local and what they charge for it. Without the local it would probably be ~R900 for a 50 Mbps symmetric uncapped connection.

You forget that the 50 Mbps for the other providers can be local or international. The only difference is that the 123Net local has greater speed, otherwise it is exactly the same.

From the greencom pricing list I copy their uncapped unshaped prices:
10 Mbps: R684
25 Mbps: R994
50 Mbps: R1350
100 Mbps: R2000

Please reference the 123Net prices and options that you are quoting, I cannot find them on their website (https://123net.co.za/en/front/areas/plans). I see only 2 options, 10 for R800 and 100 for R2000.
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
30,955
You forget that the 50 Mbps for the other providers can be local or international. The only difference is that the 123Net local has greater speed, otherwise it is exactly the same.

From the greencom pricing list I copy their uncapped unshaped prices:
10 Mbps: R684
25 Mbps: R994
50 Mbps: R1350
100 Mbps: R2000

Please reference the 123Net prices and options that you are quoting, I cannot find them on their website (https://123net.co.za/en/front/areas/plans). I see only 2 options, 10 for R800 and 100 for R2000.

The prices were earlier in this thread when someone uploaded the contract.

EDIT: Sorry, wrong thread. Check the secunda thread.

EDIT2:

EDIT3: Link is dead, will see if I still have the download and reupload it.

EDIT4: http://www71.zippyshare.com/v/gl1a9F7Q/file.html
 
Last edited:

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
31,217
Fibre is competitive from 10 Mbps up, below 10 Mbps prices are much closer to ADSL. I'm not sure how someone can sell a service for R300 if just the line portion of that costs them the entire R300. Then they are selling a service at a loss. I also don't know where you get those packages from 123Net from. The packages I can see on their website is 10 Mbps for R800, or 5 Mbps free for at least 2 years. Again nothing in between, a big gap. I have been in contact with 22 fibre providers for the Lynnwood Fibre Initiative, and 123Net has been on the more expensive side of those 22. Vumatel has packages from R200 and up, so that bridges the gap very nicely countering your own argument against their free option.
The line portion costs R3600 if enough people take it. Providing a low amount of data (still uncapped) has little impact on the network so doesn't cost that much. Sure there are things like maintenance over the long term which is why it's guaranteed for 2 years. Doesn't make it unfeasible to have low cost packages and your own example of R200 negates your point on that. It's what I always said is in fact needed to make fibre installations affordable. Wrt the R200 packages, if it doesn't offer enough value like is usually the case with caps people will rather go with free options and work within that.

Now if item 1 is the majority of those 3 components (notice how there is no data, and no speed associated with that), then that is the absolute minimum they can charge. I will say again, from my talks with the fibre providers in our area, they claim that cost to their company to be at the very least R200 p/m, sometimes R300 p/m. That is without data. The line speed here is what they limit you to on their network, which cost exactly the same to install weather everyone has a 1 Gbps fibre to their home of a 4 Mbps fibre to their home (because the fibre is the same fibre, and the cost is in getting that fibre to your door).
That is exactly my point. The biggest cost is in rolling out the infrastructure. Once that is paid for the cost of low speed data becomes almost nothing in comparison and shouldn't affect you for years to come. In order to make it affordable they offer the free option to help keep installation costs down. Without it they can only target the high density areas like Vamatel does.

I'm not sure what is so amazing about the local option but if that is what you want then great. It is still not for everyone. Sure people's usage increases over time, however it does not start out that way when they move to fibre, and to get them to fibre you have to compete with what they are currently using and paying for, not what they will be using in 2 years time. Their pockets are aligned with what they are spending right now, they don't know what the future will hold.
You're not seeing the context. It offers far more value than any other providers. If you don't want the local you don't need to take it and then you pay about the same as most other providers plus it's still uncapped which is somewhat of a rarity.

Oh, and the prices are in the contract as posted in the Secunda thread.

I did not misunderstand anything, I'm telling you what we are experiencing in my suburb. The point I'm making is that you will not get the same from flyers as talking or via email, not by a long shot. In my experience email and talking to people were way superior to flyers. This is my experience, don't use it if you don't want to. I'm trying to save you money, why I don't know.
And I'm not saying that this isn't your experience. Thing is a 10% response rate is what I and others have experienced through various means from facebook pm's to flyers to personally talking to people. I'm not discounting your experience, you may well have good people skills to convince people, but our experiences haven't been the same. Or you took forms with you when you visited people? People's reactions are a lot different when you're with them than after you leave. I can almost guarantee you right now that if this is the case not more than 10% of those people will want to sign up for the actual service. I have 44 people so far that actually signed up and these are mostly people that are really interested so most of them will probably be taking the service.

Flyers and newspaper ads are all that's left for us unless I continue with facebook pm's. Weltevredenpark managed to get about 250 signups from a newspaper article that wasn't even targeted to their area before the counter stopped and have about 500 signups now from what I gather.

You forget that the 50 Mbps for the other providers can be local or international. The only difference is that the 123Net local has greater speed, otherwise it is exactly the same.

From the greencom pricing list I copy their uncapped unshaped prices:
10 Mbps: R684
25 Mbps: R994
50 Mbps: R1350
100 Mbps: R2000

Please reference the 123Net prices and options that you are quoting, I cannot find them on their website (https://123net.co.za/en/front/areas/plans). I see only 2 options, 10 for R800 and 1000 for R2000.
123net
10 Mbps: R449
10 Mbps: R799
20 Mbps: R999
30 Mbps: R1189
40 Mbps: R1369
50 Mbps: R1499
100 Mbps: R1999

Only the first one there doesn't include the 1000 Mbps local. Once we can design our own packages the others will likely be anything from 25-50% cheaper without the local option.
 
Top