Building under construction collapses in George

konfab said:
Bumping as the report was released (April)

This little titbit is absolute damning.


https://www.gov.za/news/media-state...-final-report-george-building-collapse-09-apr


In other words, they had no idea how strong the soil was that they were building on. That is actually worth culpable homicide for any engineer who signed off.
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Maybe but many, many buildings are designed and constructed with no geotech at all BUT this relies on inspections (and approvals etc) during foundation construction. There isn't any indication I can find that defines foundation failure as the cause of the building collapse (normally plenty of warning with foundation failure - settlement etc).
 
RedViking said:
I don't buy it. Any competent engineer will make sure all the tests are there or request it, surely?
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A competent engineer yes, but even from back then there were indications that the engineer signing things off was cutting corners.
 
The 'cause' of the collapse is reported:
www.bbc.com

South Africa George building collapse that killed 34 was preventable, says minister

Workers reported feeling vibrations in the partially built structure, and being told to cover up holes with sand.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
A new report into the tragedy reveals that serious safety concerns had been raised well before the partially built five-storey apartment block collapsed in the town of George in May 2024.

Public Works Minister Dean Macpherson said the collapse was the result of multiple failures including the use of substandard materials, structural cracks, and visible gaps.
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Some of the defects were detected a year before the collapse. The health and safety officer even resigned in protest but work continued, the report found.

"The work should have stopped," Macpherson said.
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He added that these signs were a chance to turn back but instead, problems with the building were "covered up".

Workers reported feeling vibrations in the structure, and being told to cover up holes with sand and substandard concrete, the report revealed.
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How long was it in construction for, it wasn't a very large building??
"Some of the defects were detected a year before the collapse. The health and safety officer even resigned in protest but work continued, the report found."
 
airborne said:
How long was it in construction for, it wasn't a very large building??
"Some of the defects were detected a year before the collapse. The health and safety officer even resigned in protest but work continued, the report found."
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Sometimes projects can drag on when there are issues with contactors and financing. Most likely deficiencies were noted in the early stages, particularly foundations or lower columns and beams. I haven't read an actual detailed analysis. Is the report public yet?
 
konfab said:
The engineer in charge is an absolute buffoon. My brothers have had to deal with him before.
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Not posted in this thread, but the 'engineer' was suspended in June. IMO a 76 year old should not be practicing in such a role.
www.citizen.co.za

George Building Collapse: Engineer suspended by Council | The Citizen

ECSA has placed Atholl Mitchell on precautionary suspension after the collapse in George, Western Cape, killed 33 people.
www.citizen.co.za www.citizen.co.za
Additionally, Mitchell and the other parties involved have been given seven days by the council to submit a comprehensive list of all the engineering-related tasks, projects, and services that he has completed in his personal and professional capacities, whether or not he has done business under the name and style of Mitchell and Associates.

“At a minimum, the draft design and as-built drawings of the projects must be provided. Within three weeks thereafter, the contractor or accountable party for the project is required to provide an independent engineer’s report concerning the structural integrity of the structure,” ECSA said.

The council ordered that an ECSA-registered individual, especially a structural engineer having a minimum of ten years of experience, practising structural engineering, and not being involved in the George Building project, compile the report.
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Gordon_R said:
Not posted in this thread, but the 'engineer' was suspended in June. IMO a 76 year old should not be practicing in such a role.
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Would you mind explaining your reasoning for that?
 
Mariner said:
Would you mind explaining your reasoning for that?
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The actions of the ECSA in suspending him, speak for themselves. The cutoff age limit for various careers is a contentious one but depends on the job. My personal opinion is that putting at risk the health and safety of so many people is not suitable. There are other qualified people able to do the task. Imagine a single pilot or bus driver in such a role?
 
Gordon_R said:
The actions of the ECSA in suspending him, speak for themselves. The cutoff age limit for various careers is a contentious one but depends on the job. My personal opinion is that putting at risk the health and safety of so many people is not suitable. There are other qualified people able to do the task. Imagine a single pilot or bus driver in such a role?
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Highly doubt age is the reason here. This is clear incompetence and nothing to do with age.
 
Gordon_R said:
The actions of the ECSA in suspending him, speak for themselves. The cutoff age limit for various careers is a contentious one but depends on the job. My personal opinion is that putting at risk the health and safety of so many people is not suitable. There are other qualified people able to do the task. Imagine a single pilot or bus driver in such a role?
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Thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware that he was suspended by ECSA. I agree that age limits in careers are contentious. Some engineers will be capable into their 80's and others are already incapable after graduation.
 
Mariner said:
Thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware that he was suspended by ECSA. I agree that age limits in careers are contentious. Some engineers will be capable into their 80's and others are already incapable after graduation.
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I think the key is to know when you need to call upon other professionals to supervise where you lack or need support . But there is a lot wrong with our building industry and the institutions regulating the industry.
 
RedViking said:
Highly doubt age is the reason here. This is clear incompetence and nothing to do with age.
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Yea it depends

Take bernie sharp as can be

Trump dementia signs are showing
Last sounded sane a great many years ago

See many old people that i would not trust with my life a lot younger than this engineer

Encountered an old tannie still sharp at 91


But yea roll of the dice

in such high risk professions a sanity check should be compulsory every x years after 60

X shrinks as the age gets higher
Decline goes quicker the older they get
 
What happened to the earlier statement that the "approved plans" were for a single story building.
 
Hemi300c said:
What happened to the earlier statement that the "approved plans" were for a single story building.
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AFAIK it's all part of the report. There were multiple changes and violations by both sides: public contractors and engineers, and municipal officials. Plenty of blame to go around, but hard to pin direct responsibility. IMO will be years before anyone goes to jail...

I see the Daily Maverick have a new article:
www.dailymaverick.co.za

Report on ‘entirely preventable’ George building collapse will form part of police probe — Macpherson

Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure Dean Macpherson has announced the completion of both the Engineering Council of South Africa and the Council for the Built Environment’s investigations into the collapse of a five-storey development in George, Western Cape, last year. The ECSA report will
www.dailymaverick.co.za www.dailymaverick.co.za
“The full ECSA investigation report… will be published in the Government Gazette in due course. An appeal window to these findings is currently under way, which expires on 3 August 2025,” said Macpherson.

“This report must form part of the police investigation as we must establish criminal negligence for what happened. If criminal wrongdoing is established, those responsible must be prosecuted without delay… No contractor, engineer or official should be beyond the reach of the law.”
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Some technical findings:
The CBE investigation, conducted by a multidisciplinary team of technical experts, encountered anecdotal evidence suggesting that the failure of the first floor and basement area of the George building initially occurred due to the failure of the reinforced concrete at these levels.
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The findings of the CBE investigating team included:
- Unusual building movements and vibrations on the roof slab, observed by a contractor two days before the collapse;
- Cracks that were noted around the base of a column on the ground floor, resembling “punch-through patterns”, and concerns that were raised about the narrow supporting columns and the large spaces between them;
- Poor workmanship and quality on site, with a subcontractor reporting that he had observed discrepancies in the concrete supplied for the basement and first-floor slabs – the specifications called for 19-megapascal or 25-megapascal concrete, and the material supplied was 13 megapascals;
- The resignation of the health and safety agent during construction, with the agent stating that it was “impossible to safeguard the interests of both the client and contractors amid continuous safety violations”;
- An inadequate geotechnical investigation, falling “far short of minimum requirements of South African national standards” and leading to groundwater being discovered in the basement; and
- A lack of competence on site, with the “approved competent person” for the structural system lacking the necessary expertise for designing complex structures.
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leon.davibe said:
Yea it depends

Take bernie sharp as can be

Trump dementia signs are showing
Last sounded sane a great many years ago

See many old people that i would not trust with my life a lot younger than this engineer

Encountered an old tannie still sharp at 91


But yea roll of the dice

in such high risk professions a sanity check should be compulsory every x years after 60

X shrinks as the age gets higher
Decline goes quicker the older they get
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Sharp as a club. Old Comrade sanders didn't have much to begin with when he supports communism.

A better example would be someone like Roger Penrose.

Then again Penrose at 50% of his intellectual peak still is likely ahead of all of us.

It just depends on the person and how mentally active they are. My father in law is turning 70 this year and is setting OCR systems for banks all over the continent. He was retired for precisely 1 year and was absolutely miserable.

It seems like a stupid policy to retire people who have experience and wisdom.
 
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