Buthelezi slams affirmative action

Hi looked at the stats on the SAPS site. Seems to be no reflection on '94, but it was a brief look I admit.
Kinda lost interest when I saw that this
Robbery at residential premises
2001/2002 = --

2005/2006 = +10000

Simple question on the murder stats are things like, are hijacking killings included in those stats, or does it have a separate category?

I'm not calling the stats rubbish, just questioning the methodology behind their compilation.

Police stats look great! Why is everyone in this country, black and white moaning then? Maybe that dude from business against crime had answers for us, sadly he was killed yesterday, the day before he was due parliament.
 
Stats

xtermin8or said:
crime is being reduced
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Violent crime?

Stats mean very little if the people managing the stats and entering data for the stats are not doing a proper job of it.

Even if crime is being reduced, the affect on the individual and our society is not. As different people each year become yet another statistic, more and more of us have our own personal horror story to relate. More and more of us close businesses for fear of becoming a murder statistic.

This could perhaps explain the increasing perception of an increase in crime. People don't so easily forget traumatic events, and that trauma can easily affect those not directly involved. If it wasn't you that was a victim this year, or the year before that, one can only wonder when will it be your turn to be mugged, hijacked, raped or murdered.

Don't even talk about the carnage on our roads or the people dying of AIDS now or in the future...

Edit: Government should not think that it's acceptable to reduce crime by some arb percentage. People don't think in terms of, 'oh, well me being hijacked last year is old news. If I get hijacked once this year, thats ok, at least crime is not increasing.'. Since '94, at a guess maybe 200,000 murders? And every year adds to that number and the memories of those that are left here.
 
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JStrike said:
xtermin8or : Your reasoning is flawed. Sure, the sectors of the society that have suffered in the past must be brought up to the same level as everyone else. Good idea, no-one disputes it. The problem is when the way it is implemented starts ruining the economy, then everyone suffers.
Simple really
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Sorry JStrike, but I think you are communicating past xterminator, He is rightly explaining taht the concept is a good and appropriate concept, but your response is mainly on its implementation.There is a difference.

In any case, these words are not surprising coming from Buthelezi. He was a very important arm of the previous government. Please remember that the TRC found him guilty of appalling atrocities, together with his pals, remember the "third force"?

This thread might juggle your memory http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/truth_and_reconciliation/203978.stm

And remember that the IFP threw its weight behind the effort of the NP to crush the Mass Democratic Movement aligned to the ANC during the 1980s.

Furthermore "Training of paramilitary units in the Caprivi Strip during 1986 by the SADF and the training in 1993 and 1994 of between 5,000 and 8,000 IFP self-protection unit (SPU) members at the Mlaba training camp must be seen as the responsibility of Chief Buthelezi"

For more information please read http://www.conflict-prevention.net/page.php?id=40&formid=73&action=show&surveyid=43

NOW, is this the guy you call a credible voice of the black people?

ME THINKS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Is there a troll among us ;)

xtermin8or said:
Aids is a pandemic, a disease,

genocide is the deliberate extermination of a certain class, tribe, or culture etc.
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Gov have been deliberately not giving ARVs to those in need. Rich people don't need gov handouts, they can afford their own ARVs. Strictly speaking, it may not be genocide, but it's pretty damn close.

xtermin8or said:
And your proof that the stats are false are where ?

Thought so you don't have any, so you can't say it is, if hard evidence is provided that the stats are wrong, I will be the first to acknowledge my mistake

so you believe what the WitWolwe tell you, okay,
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Why don't you give us proof that they are correct. I'm sure that we would all be shocked if we saw the process involved in capturing crime data. If my cellular service providers or the credit bureau can't get my info correct I have very little faith in government getting crime data and statistics correct.

E.g. Transunion ITC credit bureau says that I am married and that I was a secretary for 5 years. None of these is true. Also, it looks like my surname is spelt 2 different ways, as well as the street I live in. There are so many errors in the data they have on me it's pretty scary.

One of my lecturers used to say, you cannot manage something unless you can measure it. I don't see how Jackie Selebi is going to ever reduce crime to acceptable levels unless they get their statistics right and develop a genuine intention to fight crime. :(

@xtermin8or: It's one thing to be an optimist, but it's a completely different matter to blindly believe that government is doing the best job it can given the mess that the country seems to be in. Are you a die-hard ANC supporter or are you perhaps just a troll in sheeps clothing? ;)

@everyone else: Sorry for my contribution to the off-topic ramblings :p
 
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Rooinek said:
NOW, is this the guy you call a credible voice of the black people?

ME THINKS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Haven't read the links, but I recall he was labeled a puppet of the old regime. That said, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have some valid points :cool:
 
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@ryan411

Just had to chuckle at ITC comments you have. I am married but have no spouse according to ITC. Also lived in PO Box I never had. Stayed in strange places I had to go and look up. My wife is unmarried, but I am listed as her spouse.
 
NOW, is this the guy you call a credible voice of the black people?
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Seems we're all a little confused about what our new democracy is supposed to mean. Buthelezi is expressing an opinion, no more, no less. So now there are there different colours of black people? (the ones that represent black people and the ones who don't?) People are people, all are entitled to an opinion.

Yes, buthelezi is a war criminal, but then so are many others. Somehow we all arrived at a democracy, so can we please have that now?
 
Be careful when doing the comparisons and links on credibility. There have been terrible attacks on IFP also. Most of the attacks on the ANC were in retaliation of attacks on the IFP by the Russian backed ANC.
 
TELESPHORE said:
@ryan411

Just had to chuckle at ITC comments you have. I am married but have no spouse according to ITC. Also lived in PO Box I never had. Stayed in strange places I had to go and look up. My wife is unmarried, but I am listed as her spouse.
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Good to know I am not the only one in that situation :p I shudder to think what is going thru the minds of anyone checking my credit record and seeing that I used to be a secretary!!! No disrespect to the secretaries out there, but as an individual in I.T., it could be pretty damaging to have potential employers or creditors thinking that I have only been in I.T. for half them time that I am telling them I've been in it!
 
xtermin8or said:
The law clearly states, that preference should be given to suitably qualified people of designated groups ( blacks, coloureds, indians )
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That was the original idea of AA. All fair and good. Unfortunately it went pear shaped when quotas were introduced. The (possibly unintended) result of quotas is that preference must be given to colour REGARDLESS of qualifications or experience.
 
ryan411 said:
@xtermin8or: It's one thing to be an optimist, but it's a completely different matter to blindly believe that government is doing the best job it can given the mess that the country seems to be in. Are you a die-hard ANC supporter or are you perhaps just a troll in sheeps clothing? ;)
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I do consider myself an optimist, but not to the point where I don't see a problem, of course there is a crime problem in the country, anyone with hal a brain can see that, I never said Government is doing the best job, they make mistakes, they sometimes completely **** things up, ( methinks that is the job of Government ) I am saying they are trying, my personal opinion, put a police station, albeit a mobile one, in every suburb and form alliances with the predominant security company in the area to do patrols, even charge people a nominal amount for it if necessary, I know there will be problems with this, but it's a start

also the Military can be used far more effectively, besides the guys doing duty beyond our borders, the pilots for the President et al , and groundcrews, there are many members not doing anything, deploy them to our streets, we need visible policing, and it might even solve the problem of discipline in the military
 
I agree with the local police stations it will integrate police into the communities they serve...

Don;t think the military is quite as idle anymore... thousands are up in africa on peacekeeping missions...
 
Much of what the military is doing in countries like the DRC and Burundi is either cargo handling for the UN, or basic policing, meaning they have been trained to do police work ( not detective or specialised work ) but they can do patrols and such, while there are many doing peace-keeping work, there are many more here who can be used

On a side note - There is a serious problem with discipline in the Military, I accompanied the former Chief of the SANDF, General Siphiwe Nyanda, on a trip to our bases in the DRC, from Goma to Kinshasa, when he walked into the barracks, some of the guys were lying on their bunks without their shirts on and they never bothered to stand up and greet the man, never mind standing at attention and saluting. One would expect that when the OC or even a Sgt major walked in they would snap to attention, but they didn't even do it for the highest ranking General in the Defence Force
 
Regarding discipline it is their seniors fault ..... the general should have had them do PT for a month...
 
no respect for chain of command. It has to be dealt with swiftly, otherwise it will just multiply. What is happening in the military is a worrying trend that is evident in most other government departments. Minimal competent leadership. There was very little if any mentorship which is coming back to bite.

at extermi - what did the general do?
 
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TELESPHORE said:
Be careful when doing the comparisons and links on credibility. There have been terrible attacks on IFP also. Most of the attacks on the ANC were in retaliation of attacks on the IFP by the Russian backed ANC.
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Telesphore those links were extracts from the TRC report. The TRC report which is at http://www.info.gov.za/ confirms that the then government sanctioned murder and used tools such as the IFP. They trained the IFP cadres at Caprivi Strip and helped marshal attacks on the ANC @ rural KZN and in hostels aroung JHB. It also clearly states that communities most of whom were ANC aligned fought back through Self Defence Units which were not in the control of the ANC as the ANC government in Lusaka did not have a direct control on their activities. I just want to clarify that the social cohension in townships allows for a community approach that does not need direction from higher powers. That is why murderers and rapists are regularly killed and burnt @ places like diepsloot without direction from the ANC government.

Sorry, about the length I just thought that an explanation was needed.

In any case the point I wanted to make was that Buthelezi has always been violently oppossed to the ANC as such his current stance is not surprising.

My believe, is that issues such as BEE are necessary and need to be implemented, but, I also acknowledge that the implementation has not been what it should be. May be the best solution is to highlight anomalies were they occur and seek that they be resolved.

As for the ITC it would be funny if it was not soooo inconvenient as most banks use lending scorecards that use their faulty data, thus depriving some people of much needed credit.
 
Rooinek said:
My believe, is that issues such as BEE are necessary and need to be implemented, but, I also acknowledge that the implementation has not been what it should be. May be the best solution is to highlight anomalies were they occur and seek that they be resolved.
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Well said!

We need to create a culture where everyone concerned can be involved constructively in setting up the BEE and AA targets.
 
xtermin8or said:
Much of what the military is doing in countries like the DRC and Burundi is either cargo handling for the UN, or basic policing, meaning they have been trained to do police work ( not detective or specialised work ) but they can do patrols and such, while there are many doing peace-keeping work, there are many more here who can be used

On a side note - There is a serious problem with discipline in the Military, I accompanied the former Chief of the SANDF, General Siphiwe Nyanda, on a trip to our bases in the DRC, from Goma to Kinshasa, when he walked into the barracks, some of the guys were lying on their bunks without their shirts on and they never bothered to stand up and greet the man, never mind standing at attention and saluting. One would expect that when the OC or even a Sgt major walked in they would snap to attention, but they didn't even do it for the highest ranking General in the Defence Force
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Isn't there something in our constitution that prevents the army being used on the people?

Anyhow, xtermin8or, just curious, but how is it that you accompanied the General to a base in the DRC? Are u ex-military?
 
no, not ex-military, just doing my job that's all, can't divulge the details at this point in time
 
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