CapeXit 2

[ToxicBunny]

What does democracy mean to you, vigras?

TB doesn't want to admit that a portion of South Africans interpret Democracy to be majoritarian / absolute rule by majority.

Do you have the courage to put your view out here, to enhance the discussion? Or are you going to defer to authority, without even listing a source, instead, like he keeps doing?

Ummm no, you kept asking me for my definition of democracy and I pointed you to Google.

Stop making shyte up lexy, its not a good look for you.

BTW, every country will have a portion of its citizens who interpret democracy incorrectly, it doesn't change the definition of democracy though, it just means that portion are wrong.

 

[vigras rojara]

What does democracy mean to you, vigras?

TB doesn't want to admit that a portion of South Africans interpret Democracy to be majoritarian / absolute rule by majority.

Do you have the courage to put your view out here, to enhance the discussion? Or are you going to defer to authority, without even listing a source, instead, like he keeps doing?

This discussion is about what democracy DOESN'T mean - that's what TB and I have been trying to communicate and which seems to be universally ignored.

Democracy can take several forms, as you very well know. None of them involve everybody getting their way all the time, which should be blatantly obvious, but apparently isn't.

 

[lexity]

This discussion is about what democracy DOESN'T mean - that's what TB and I have been trying to communicate and which seems to be universally ignored.

Democracy can take several forms, as you very well know. None of them involve everybody getting their way all the time, which should be blatantly obvious, but apparently isn't.

So you, too are not prepared to state what the word 'Democracy' means to you...

... very interesting.

What's the problem with stating your personal view?

 

[vigras rojara]

So you, too are not prepared to state what the word 'Democracy' means to you...

... very interesting.

What's the problem with stating your personal view?

Because that wasn't what was being discussed?

But I'm not in favour of a qualified franchise - all citizens should be able to vote. I'm also not getting into debates about constitutional democracies vs other forms now...

 

[lexity]

Ummm no, you kept asking me for my definition of democracy and I pointed you to Google.

Google produces a list of results. Not merely one.

Which result are you referring to?

Stop making shyte up lexy, its not a good look for you.

BTW, every country will have a portion of its citizens who interpret democracy incorrectly, it doesn't change the definition of democracy though, it just means that portion are wrong.

Yet, you are personally not prepared to state which one you think is correct/incorrect.

This makes you look like you are not willing to take personal responsibility for your assertions, and your view of the world in general.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Google produces a list of results. Not merely one.

Which result are you referring to?


Yet, you are personally not prepared to state which one you think is correct/incorrect.

This makes you look like you are not willing to take personal responsibility for your assertions, and your view of the world in general.

You're smart, figure out how Google works.

And no, the rest of your post is your own made up shyte.. As usual.

 

[lexity]

Because that wasn't what was being discussed?

But I'm not in favour of a qualified franchise - all citizens should be able to vote. I'm also not getting into debates about constitutional democracies vs other forms now...

Should the majority be able to vote on the bill of rights without any minority being free to separate jurisdictionally/withdraw from the union?

 

[lexity]

You're smart, figure out how Google works.

And no, the rest of your post is your own made up shyte.. As usual.

You're being intractable.

Unless someone is prepared to do discourse, which involves defining their terms upfront where requested to do so, there is only one alternative to determining who should have right of way..... coercion.

I think you've said enough to convince me where you stand.

 

[vigras rojara]

Should the majority be able to vote on the bill of rights without any minority being free to separate jurisdictionally/withdraw from the union?

Anyone is free to "withdraw from the union".

For example, you can buy a property in an approved scheme in Mauritius for $300 000, jump on a plane and bugger off. You are then free to associate with the clear ocean and the wooden dodo sellers on the beach and never have to worry about all the people you have somehow been forced to associate with up till now.

 

[ToxicBunny]

You're being intractable.

Unless someone is prepared to do discourse, which involves defining their terms upfront where requested to do so, there is only one alternative to determining who should have right of way..... coercion.

I think you've said enough to convince me where you stand.

So then where do I stand?

 

[lexity]

So then where do I stand?

In order to avoid or resolve conflict, you rely on coercion, not discourse.

You've proven you think you don't have to engage in discourse in order to be right.

All you do is point to laws that are passed, completely ignoring that laws derive their legitimacy from the morals of a distinct people. And laws which don't, lack legitimacy.

It seems you don't distinguish between legitimate law and illegitimate law.

You're a majoritarian Democrat.

 

[ToxicBunny]

In order to avoid or resolve conflict, you rely on coercion, not discourse.

You've proven you think you don't have to engage in discourse in order to be right.

All you do is point to laws that are passed, completely ignoring that laws derive their legitimacy from the morals of a distinct people. And laws which don't, lack legitimacy.

It seems you don't distinguish between legitimate law and illegitimate law.

You're a majoritarian Democrat.

You're wrong but that's no surprise.

 

[lexity]

You're a majoritarian Democrat.

You're wrong but that's no surprise.

What's the alternative to a majoritarian, then?

 

[ToxicBunny]

What's the alternative to a majoritarian, then?

Clearly what you want. Democracy by your people, for your people.

 

[Brian_G]

Where I think TB may have the edge, is in the fact that either form of democracy is still just called democracy. Shouldn't the question then only focus on whether the BoR is a structure that's accepted as being needed?

And then we have a 3rd democracy creeping in; the one where Socialist factors are seriously injected into it. But maybe that's best left for another day

 

[lexity]

Clearly what you want. Democracy by your people, for your people.

Where 'your people' is a common set of core moral precepts, yes. Otherwise known as a bill of rights.

And for anyone who doesn't share them to be free to withdraw.

What's wrong with that?

 

[ToxicBunny]

Where 'your people' is a common set of core moral precepts, yes. Otherwise known as a bill of rights.

And for anyone who doesn't share them to be free to withdraw.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing.. You already live in such a country, so what's the problem?

And if you don't share the moral concepts in our BoR, what's wrong with you?

 

[lexity]

Where I think TB may have the edge, is in the fact that either form of democracy is still just called democracy. Shouldn't the question then only focus on whether the BoR is a structure that's accepted as being needed?

Not the structure... the content.

That's the part of the law that needs to remain constant.

If a majority can simply vote away the rights of a minority ... that's the definition of mob-rule.

How else would you define mob-rule?

Mob-rule is where one large group forces it's rules on other smaller groups.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Not the structure... the content.

That's the part of the law that needs to remain constant.

If a majority can simply vote away the rights of a minority ... that's the definition of mob-rule.

How else would you define mob-rule?

Mob-rule is where one large group forces it's rules on other smaller groups.

So you do dislike democracy then.. Took you long enough to admit it.

 

[lexity]

Nothing.. You already live in such a country, so what's the problem?

The problem is the refusal to co-operate on secession.

There is no legitimacy to a bill of rights, if you change them without a 100% approval rate.

In order to change them AND maintain legitimacy, you have to co-operate to a peaceful separation from those who don't accept your changes.