Cern scientist: 'Physics built by men - not by invitation'

Nom Chompsky

Nom Chompsky

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A senior scientist has given what has been described as a "highly offensive" presentation about the role of women in physics, the BBC has learned.

At a workshop organised by Cern, Prof Alessandro Strumia of Pisa University said that "physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation".

He said male scientists were being discriminated against because of ideology rather than merit.

He was speaking at a workshop in Geneva on gender and high energy physics.

Prof Strumia has since defended his comments, saying he was only presenting the facts.

Cern, the European nuclear research centre, described Prof Strumia's presentation as "highly offensive".

The centre, which discovered the Higgs Boson in 2012, has removed slides used in the talk from its website "in line with a code of conduct that does not tolerate personal attacks and insults".

Prof Strumia, who regularly works at Cern, presented the results of a study of published research papers from an online library.

He told his audience of young, predominantly female physicists that his results "proved" that "physics is not sexist against women. However the truth does not matter, because it is part of a political battle coming from outside".

He produced a series of graphs which, he claimed, showed that women were hired over men whose research was cited more by other scientists in their publications, which is an indication of higher quality.

He also presented data that he claimed showed that male and female researchers were equally cited at the start of their careers but men scored progressively better as their careers progressed.

Prof Strumia pointed to behavioural research which he suggested may account for the disparity.

One study, he told his audience, indicated that "men prefer working with things and women prefer working with people" and another, he claimed, suggested that there was a "difference even in children before any social influence".


Prof Strumia said that these conclusions may "not be fully right... (but) the opposite assumption of identical brains is ideology".

As evidence of discrimination against male researchers, Prof Strumia claimed that "Oxford University extends exam times for women's benefit" and "Italy offers free or cheaper university for female (research) students". He also said that he himself was overlooked for a job that he was more qualified for, which was given to a woman.

Dr Jessica Wade, a physicist at Imperial College London who was at the meeting, told BBC News that Prof Strumia's analysis was simplistic, drawing on ideas that had "long been discredited".

"It was really upsetting to those at the workshop," she said.

"There were young women and men exchanging ideas and their experiences on how to encourage more women into the subject and to combat discrimination in their careers. Then this man gets up, saying all this horrible stuff."

She added: "I don't understand how such a forward thinking organisation like Cern, which does so much to promote diversity in research, could have invited him to speak to young people just starting off in their research careers when his ideas are so well known."
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45703700
 
He was speaking at a workshop in Geneva on gender and high energy physics.

"It was really upsetting to those at the workshop," she said.
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If you're going to take the time to have such a workshop topic, then be prepared to hear all & opposing opinions. Last I checked CERN wasn't an echo-chamber.

That said - it seems like a silly topic anyway. Rather just do science and stop worrying about the politics.
 
saor said:
If you're going to take the time to have such a workshop topic, then be prepared to hear all & opposing opinions. Last I checked CERN wasn't an echo-chamber.

That said - it seems like a silly topic anyway. Rather just do science and stop worrying about the politics.
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Well, in that he's claiming that women are being given positions over better qualified men, the problem would seem to be that the politics are effecting the science.
 
Nick333 said:
Well, in that he's claiming that women are being given positions over better qualified men, the problem would seem to be that the politics are effecting the science.
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Couldn't he make that argument or objection without the science was created by men idiocy which is detracting from what may be a valid argument? It's like that argument that "my race created clothes, etc". It is stupid to take credit for happenstance
 
how many findings or inventions or what ever have been disregarded because its from a female?
 
access said:
how many findings or inventions or what ever have been disregarded because its from a female?
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We can't know for sure but I suspect there'd be some and not just women. Science was an exclusive club steeped in patriarchy and social standing at one point. Many other things I would guess.
 
Dr Wade's wiki picture:

220px-Jess_Wade_-_2017_%28cropped%29.jpg



I'll just leave this here.
 
R13... said:
Couldn't he make that argument or objection without the science was created by men idiocy which is detracting from what may be a valid argument? It's like that argument that "my race created clothes, etc". It is stupid to take credit for happenstance
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Maybe he could have, but his point is that it wasn't happenstance so it would have to be implied at least.

This is the problem with making topics off limits because they cause offense - people think that because it's "offensive" what someone is saying is not worthy of actually considering. His whole point is that it wasn't happenstance and goes on to provide evidence for his opinion. You hear it as taking credit for happenstance. So, in your opinion he's taking credit for the achievements of the male gender, and after examining his evidence you find it's nonsense?
 
R13... said:
We can't know for sure but I suspect there'd be some and not just women. Science was an exclusive club steeped in patriarchy and social standing at one point. Many other things I would guess.
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Which doesn't actually mean that the male gender won't keep producing most of the best scientists all things being equal.
 
Dr Jessica Wade, a physicist at Imperial College London who was at the meeting, told BBC News that Prof Strumia's analysis was simplistic, drawing on ideas that had "long been discredited".

"It was really upsetting to those at the workshop," she said.

"There were young women and men exchanging ideas and their experiences on how to encourage more women into the subject and to combat discrimination in their careers. Then this man gets up, saying all this horrible stuff."
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Notice how they will never say what is wrong with the data he spoke about. They just say it is bad because it hurts the feels.
 
"Physics was invented and built by men"

What am I even reading? Physics isn't built or invented - it's discovered. God created physics, not some scientist.
 
Nick333 said:
Which doesn't actually mean that the male gender won't keep producing most of the best scientists all things being equal.
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What actually happens is when you make society more conducive to people's choices, the differences between male and female career choices increases.

We could easily get rid of the gender bias in STEM. Simply have mandatory quotas that force academically capable woman to go into STEM instead of underwater lesbian dance therapy.
 
Nick333 said:
Which doesn't actually mean that the male gender won't keep producing most of the best scientists all things being equal.
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Sure it doesn't but if they'd let everyone at it equally maybe we'd be farther along than we currently are. None wrong with giving women a boost up to make sure it happens.
 
konfab said:
Simply have mandatory quotas that force academically capable woman to go into STEM instead of underwater lesbian dance therapy.
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You're making it sound like this doesn't already happen.

R13... said:
Suppose he misspoke.
Ot: when'd you turn godly?
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Nah, he's a physicist. He's probably just arrogant as ****. I know, I've been there.

OT: I'm probably just a contrarian *******, but everything has design - and the design isn't man-made.
 
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