Juice
Expert Member
Yeah, everyone does. Get in line.
Juice
Juice
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Question of the Day: How often do you receive spam calls?
DataPro lets remove them and their advertising.
- Thread starter ganymede1
- Start date
ettubrute said:
Why? This has been one of my biggest issues with the complaint filed with ICASA originally.
That is not even an international standard. In the US you pay a line rental, it is just bundled in the ISP fees. ISP's have to pay to access the ATM network of the ILEC or CLEC, then they pay a monthly port fee to them for each subscriber they have along with a setup fee.. In the BellSouth area it is roughly this..
Monthly
DS1 to ILEC/CLEC ATM $500-1000
DS3 to ILEC/CLEC ATM $1500-4000
Port Fee to ILEC/CLEC $30-45
Once off
Setup Fee to ILEC/CLEC $100
Then the subscriber must pay a federal infrastructure fee that is placed in a shared fund for all ILEC and CLEC infrastructure build out. This is about $6 for residential lines.
Once all this is calculated in, then you have to add the cost of bandwidth that is used per client.
Then you decide you want another ISP, you have to deactivate your ADSL service and wait for the other provider to activate it. You could have a few days or weeks to wait on this. The ILEC/CLEC can't activate any new ISP on the line until the previous is removed..
So having the telco charge this has its benefit.. The major change would be when the SNO comes in. Not all ISP's will offer both services from Telkom and the SNO. So changing your ISP could be a headache.
David
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Per gig billing is not a bad idea. The low usage ADSL users will then not subsidise the broadband abusers using 100+GB per month. Your normal check-your-mail and browse-some-sites users would then pay only for the bandwidth consumed.
The only thing wrong with Telkom's pay-per-gig idea is the exorbitant price. The wholesale price suggestion of R60 per gig is absurd.
The only thing wrong with Telkom's pay-per-gig idea is the exorbitant price. The wholesale price suggestion of R60 per gig is absurd.
koffiejunkie
Executive Member
"to ensure that users get the service they pay for."
The funny thing is, I ran into quite a few people who say their companies dumped datapro and went back to their normal saix accounts on the firewalls we installed initially. The bandwidth, although uncapped, is not so hot, and poor/slow customer support/service.
Going with the big guys have their benifits, I'm sure, but how many small companies who depend on their IT infrastructure can afford the long turn around times and red tape that comes with it?
Makes you wonder...
The funny thing is, I ran into quite a few people who say their companies dumped datapro and went back to their normal saix accounts on the firewalls we installed initially. The bandwidth, although uncapped, is not so hot, and poor/slow customer support/service.
Going with the big guys have their benifits, I'm sure, but how many small companies who depend on their IT infrastructure can afford the long turn around times and red tape that comes with it?
Makes you wonder...
I agree.bb_matt said:
One can easily understand why an ISP is supportive of a per-gig-billing system when one has to ensure QoS. DataPro is in this position. This system is in place in many countries worldwide, but the main difference is that there are still affordable packages for high-end users. This is what I believe missing with Telkom’s offer (and obviously R 50-60 per Gig is ludicrous). I am fairly certain Douglas will fully support a cheaper wholesale system, especially since DataPro will then be able to be more competitive and gain more customers...
Regards,
RPM
paarlberg said:
If I had my own bandwidth, that I didnt pay monthly for, I could charge a fix rate. I pay per meg, so I resell per meg in a combined package.
Im sure you knew this, what was the point of asking this question?
Celemasiko
Expert Member
Juice said:
do you think on people who don't have a lot of money and all whats left for them is the internet? It doesn't look like it....
Clipse said:
Unfortunately, you and everyone else must pay every month regardless, it can be by usage, or a flat rate... Say you had a 512k link that costs R32k per month..
512k R32,000
Max traffic usage in GB per month approximately 320GB
That is R100 per GB.
You could charge a flat rate for the service. In order to determine the rate you would have to look at the following..
Amount of usage per client
Cost for that usage
Number of clients that are paying for the service
Do you oversell betting on not all being online at the same time
How much BW per client is allowed
You want to fill that 512k pipe with as many users as possible to cover your costs to make it profitable.
Are you willing to pay costs out of your pocket should you have non-paying clients, or should your subscriber base fall? I doubt it..
The only fair way for you to sell it and still be profitable regardless of the client base is to sell by usage and buy it by usage.. You add some markup for your cost to provide the service whether it is hardware, software, maintenance, labour, or other resources to provide the service.
Any way you look at it your price is affected by usage.
I am not jumping on you personally.. but the comment you made is repeated by others in this forum and it look as a great time to make a comment, that I have been holding back from doing for a while...
I agree that the pricing could be better with the new ADSL product, but I don't think that someone that uses 1GB a month should be put in the same category and price with someone that wants to download a GB a day to improve their music/movie collection.
The same theory above for pricing applies to any service provider in the world.. if the provider can't profit, they go away.. There was a provider in the US "FreeDSL" and it was free, you had to have a banner ad running in order to get the service, you could pay more to get rid of it and a higher speed. They took a $35 per month hit on each client that had the free account and about $15 on the no-banner ad clients. They lasted about 1 year and went away in about 2000. That was just on the local port access and not including any actual bandwidth to the internet that they had. People expect things for free, both in SA and overseas.. you get what you pay for is a phrase that comes to mind.
the pay-per-gig IS better, the only thing needs to change is the price, i mean if they charge R10 a gig (wich is still expenisve, and wishfull thinking) many more poeple would be able to afford adsl. another thing, isnt the pay-per-gig priceing structure, killing one of the benefits of dsl? the always connected feature?
At first look it would appear you are right.. except the following..
A lot of people use minimal bandwidth for surfing, e-mail etc. They don't have to pay based on the time online, just the amount of content they download.
2 users could be online for the same amount of time 1 downloads the Library of Congress and the other websites and mail..
A lot of people use minimal bandwidth for surfing, e-mail etc. They don't have to pay based on the time online, just the amount of content they download.
2 users could be online for the same amount of time 1 downloads the Library of Congress and the other websites and mail..
paarlberg said:
First off, lets get things clear with your equations.. the vpn I run requires double bandwidth since 99% of the users are gamers, which result in client->server->gameserver and then gameserver->server->client. 2x gameserver traffic + 2x client traffic = usage. For each the client would do up, it would result as 2MB, but we bill that as 1MB since we allready work in the double traffic. Working on this formula, you would effectively have 160GIG in a whole to resell, and at cost without any profit that would be R200 x 160gig = R32000 and I break even. Do you honestly think its a breeze to get so many users on, for gaming, to cover 160gig each month? And that is just breaking even, how bout making profit for my trouble?
Which brings me to the following:
You miss the whole point, I have to pay per meg from hosting facility which is getting screwed aswell by Telkom at the end of the day on the local loop. They have their own international pipe, if they had cheaper/free local loop access, my access to their international pipe would be hell of alot cheaper.
This is my point, Telkom screwing them and in affect I get screwed aswell as the clients I serve.
I dont care how much 512k diginet as you quoted work out, its still a ripoff, presented by Telkom. Dont forget the fact that whatever price you compare with, its Telkom in control of that price and screwing over the businesses aswell as the clients.
To give you an idea, atm Im charging on the vpn R300 per gig, that would be between R70-R100 per gig, if my host didnt have to get billed so dreadfully much on the local loop.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT aint it?
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Clipse said:
The scenario is the same around the world, someone is making money off bandwidth and many are making a killing off bandwidth.
We hate paying $3-5k for a DS3 in the US, but you have to do what you have to do. It was much higher before, was about $4k for a T1 a few years ago.
A friend complained to me that gbps broadband wasn't available at his house in Hong Kong, it was 3 km away and would be 2 years before he would get it.. he moved.
My point is in every ISP and hosting scenario you are concerned about usage whether is per GB billing or as a bulk flat monthly for a specified amount of BW.
Yet again, your not focusing at all.. The problem is Telkom and their Tarrifs, then we can focus on the examples your posing here.
Atm these examples mean nothing, Telkom is the core of the high prices, and their profits each year reflect just how big a problem they really are.
If you want to argue for telkom still, then go ahead, Im not going to waste any more time with someone thinking around a bubble.. Please poke your head inside and feel the soap.
Atm these examples mean nothing, Telkom is the core of the high prices, and their profits each year reflect just how big a problem they really are.
If you want to argue for telkom still, then go ahead, Im not going to waste any more time with someone thinking around a bubble.. Please poke your head inside and feel the soap.
This is retarded. People who think this per gig billing is going to work out are going to get more screwd. It opens you up to be more screwd per gig than you have been before. If everyone just backed the once of fee or uncapped idea or just a larger cap everyone here would benefit. We are now divided - divided means weak.
The worst thing is that yes there are people who use like 1 or 2 gigs a month and sure they might be loosing out like 50 bucks or whatever per month if the new system gets adopted..... but the people/schools/SMME's that actually use more than that who cant afford it are getting nailed. So to all the people that are like "It's all about me attitude" yeah maybe for now its all about you because you saving 50-100bucks but if you one day find yourself in a position needing to actually use 10 gig a month and start feeling ripped off... just remember where it all started.
There are many high volume users - poor schools with like 500 pupils who probably have something close to 50gig traffic a month purely because of the sheer volumes of students who now wont be able to offer any form of affordable service. There are small businesses who have to take a step back because if they surf that little bit to much they wont be able to get their mail.
The system is stupid. You selfish bunch who think they going to save a few pennies are going to cost a large marjority far too much - oh and paying for a gig of local is even a bigger rip off because THAT truly doesnt cost you, me or telkom another cent.
The worst thing is that yes there are people who use like 1 or 2 gigs a month and sure they might be loosing out like 50 bucks or whatever per month if the new system gets adopted..... but the people/schools/SMME's that actually use more than that who cant afford it are getting nailed. So to all the people that are like "It's all about me attitude" yeah maybe for now its all about you because you saving 50-100bucks but if you one day find yourself in a position needing to actually use 10 gig a month and start feeling ripped off... just remember where it all started.
There are many high volume users - poor schools with like 500 pupils who probably have something close to 50gig traffic a month purely because of the sheer volumes of students who now wont be able to offer any form of affordable service. There are small businesses who have to take a step back because if they surf that little bit to much they wont be able to get their mail.
The system is stupid. You selfish bunch who think they going to save a few pennies are going to cost a large marjority far too much - oh and paying for a gig of local is even a bigger rip off because THAT truly doesnt cost you, me or telkom another cent.
ganymede1 said:
If you want to connect to IS or UUNET it does cost money as they have to pay for the peering bandwidth between them. IS and SAIX have 140mbps ATM peering link between them, I believe that UUNET and SAIX have a similar link, that link is still expensive even at international prices.
I may be wrong (which not many people on this forum ever say), but I believe accredited schools get highly discounted services as part of the communications act. I have heard that they only paid about R125 per month for the line charge.. and very little if any for the accounts.
Juice
Expert Member
ganymede1 said:
Hmmm. I'm getting a bit tired of being considered selfish, so let me clarify my position for you and some of the other people who have been bandying this about.
Just as a little interjection, I find myself wondering who's more selfish. The bunch who wants per gig billing because they're tired of being penalised through shaping because of the bunch who want 30Gb caps so that they could download the entire internet onto their hard drives or the power users and so-called abusers of the system who make it possible for Telkom to justify capping, shaping and high prices? Let's not throw petty concepts like selfishness about when there are guilty parties on both sides. Some people just want to pay less and don't give a damn about anyone else, whether it's the 3Gb user or the 30Gb user.
Per gig billing will be better for me because I can then get an unshaped account for a more reasonable price so that I can use ADSL effectively for World of Warcraft, which is what I got ADSL for in the first place. ADSL, even as ****ty as it is, became less expensive than my ISDN connection, but due to shaping a little less effective. I now have the opportunity to remedy that situation.
I am here on this forum to participate in the drive to make ADSL even better for everyone else who uses it, including the 30Gb users and mass-downloading end-of-the-month cap-busters who are currently contributing to my ADSL experience being slightly less than satisfactory. We have a service that can be better. Until it IS better, we have to live with it while we do what we can to improve it.
Juice
Related thread: [post=227174]Campaign aims to get schools connected[/post]paarlberg said:
@paarlberg, you say it like it's a bad thing...
...do you not believe that schools should be able to afford to provide their teaching staff and students with affordable access to the internet?AFAIK very few schools are currently getting their legislated 50% discount, and have been lodging complaints with ICASA, that legislated right kicked in, in January [2005], and still Telkomonopoly and the DoC cannot get it together...
Juice I am also seriously pissed that i cannot use my adsl line for WoW or Skype which were the two most important reasons for me getting broadband in the first place, however it is a big mistake to blame the high cap users for the situation.
Its really very simple Telkom are looking for every way to extract more money from you. There is no shortage of international bandwidth, telkom could open the pipe a little more at no further cost to themselves and give everyone unshaped (or significantly less shaped) bandwidth, but no they would rather force you to pay double for the pleasure of being able to use your connection for what you want.
Per Gb billing is yet another way to extract more money from another segment of the market - the high cap users. In the furore of this latest development what has in some way been lost is the fact that telkom have eliminated the local after cap. Now pay more my friend. So until there is a mind change within Telkom from lets screw them for all we can to lets provide a decent service at a decent cost, the billing structure is immaterial, you gonna get screwed, either gig by gig or package by package.
Its really very simple Telkom are looking for every way to extract more money from you. There is no shortage of international bandwidth, telkom could open the pipe a little more at no further cost to themselves and give everyone unshaped (or significantly less shaped) bandwidth, but no they would rather force you to pay double for the pleasure of being able to use your connection for what you want.
Per Gb billing is yet another way to extract more money from another segment of the market - the high cap users. In the furore of this latest development what has in some way been lost is the fact that telkom have eliminated the local after cap. Now pay more my friend. So until there is a mind change within Telkom from lets screw them for all we can to lets provide a decent service at a decent cost, the billing structure is immaterial, you gonna get screwed, either gig by gig or package by package.