Depression.

Now you know, in my depression journey, I have used several prescription antidepressants. And now I'm trying vitamin D, and it seems to be helping, as much or more than any of the prescription antidepressants I've used in the past.

Are you going to tell me, "well, then, Humberto, you probably never really had depression in the first place, because vitamin D cannot possibly treat depression, only medication can"?

Are you going to tell me, "you must be mistaken when you say you are doing well, Humberto, because vitamin D cannot possibly treat depression, only medication can"?

Why do some people get so upset when those of us who have made the journey decide that supplements help us as much as medication?

What's lithium, by the way? A mineral, and one of the few treatments with a proven anti-suicide effect.
 
Chicken Boo said:
And an SSRI in such a case?
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Might actually work and is part of the first line treatment, obviously combined with HAART.

There's no point, Riax, but I do admire your perseverance!

The problem with Psychiatry and the DSM is that all the conditions is classified according to symptoms. Where as in other specialities, it is classified according to anatomy (e.g. Hepatic conditions) or aetiology (e.g. Infection, haemostatic imbalances, etc).
The reason for this is that when they first started with the DSM criteria, they knew very little of how the brain works, so they organized it according to symptoms. What happened over the years is that one moment a condition would be classified as for example, an anxiety disorder, but then they decide it looks rather like a personality disorder.

Now because they know so little of the brain (even today) they struggle to classify according to aetiology.

There are several triggers for depression like physical loss (family member, financial stability), emotional (poor relationships). Depression also has a genetic component: you are more likely to get depression if you have a close family member with depression.
But the exact mechanism(s) is not yet understood. They do know that serotonin plays an integral part and hence the different antidepressants.

The current first line treatment for a major depressive episode is an SSRI like fluoxetine. A very large percentage of patients relapse after treatment and need to stay on their medication for the rest of their life.

Depression should be approached according to the Biopsychosocial model, since it's probably multifactorial in origin. Meaning: the patient should be on an antidepressant, but that's not the most important aspect and it will probably not cure him.
Psychological counselling is highly recommended, but not 3 monthly. Weekly if possible (which never is). They must also get the family involved in the patient's recovery, the patient needs a good social support structue where he feels loved etc.

But this is, at best, only symptomatic treatment because we're not sure about the exact aetiology. We're also not sure whether it's real depression. It can be personality disorders, bipolar disorders, anxiety disorders, etc.

When looking at a depressed patient multiaxial classification, they very seldomly only have depression noted on it, but rather some comorbidities like financial or relationship difficulties, poor social structures, personality traits, chronic medical conditions.

In the ideal world, pharmacological treatment should only be considered as treatment if Major Depressive Disorder is the only condition on the axis. If there is any other condition on the axis, pharmacological treatment should only be considered supportive (unless a pure biological depression has been diagnosed).

But until we know more about the brain and the aetiology for its conditions, let's continue with our multifactorial approach to treating depression and other ailments of the mind.
Whether it's your multivitamins, thyroid medication,ECT, frontal lobectomies*, holy water or antidepressants. If it works, it works.

Depression is "all in your mind" after all.

*I'd advice against this form of treatment...
 
Friedpet said:
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lol yeah im used to it. People assume pharmacists just count tablets. We manage patients thats my job I do not make a diagnosis thats the Dr's job. Saying a pharmacist counts pills is the same as saying all a Dr does is write a script.

My experience is a collective consolidation from GPs to specialists from every field and you learn from that over time.

See the problem is these type of people want a quick fix - which doesnt exist. They also assume that because its health practice that the practioner is actually suppose to take responsibility for your health which again is incorrect the responsibility falls on the patient, the practioner is there to fix.

People also have no clue how the brain works and how drugs interact with the brain, at this point im currently designing drug delivery systems for the CNS so my level of understanding WRT to the brain is vast. These are extremely complex sciences and people think they understand them by reading 10-20 articles on the net, there are people that research this stuff for decades and they still learning on the subject. They call red herrings and strawmen yet they cant see what im trying to point out because they simply dont understand the mechanisms that are in play. I mean if you look at it they dont understand the definition of the word treatment or to treat.

SSRIs was thrown out against the HIV positive case because he assumed that the drug wont work because HIV is there and will stay there however this is utter rubbish. It clearly points out the lack of understanding of the pathology, the treatment modality and the pharmacology in play. The problem is applying common simplistic thinking to a field that its very complex. This is why you get these delusions of 'big pharma' and 'hiding cures' and so forth. If I discovered a cure for depression tomorrow id sell it under patent to a pharmaceutical company they will buy it for a couple hundred million dollars id retire their stocks will go up and move on to the next disease or optimize the current drug and make even more money. Though they look at the R1200 a month they pay for like seroquel and think that actually means something to the industry - that is for the local boys like clicks and the psych dr and so forth. Also to think that we hiding the cure is an insult to our biology the correct answer is that we not smart enough to cure it.

The next thing you are absolutely correct. Patients are quick to dismiss the pharmacological agents and boast they ineffective yet they ineffective because the patient is not taking responsibility. They suppose to actually do the counselling concurrently with their treatment but most dont. Then they assume their experience with certain agent applies globally yet there are countless more that the exact same drug has helped and saved their lives its like taste. You eat something you dont like it you tell your friends dont eat it but there are many people that enjoy that particular dish. As pointed out earlier there is no magic bullet and a pill to pop to make things go away and normal doesnt exist.

Again you see the ignorance because everything with them revolves around serotonin (5-HT). Though they dont realise 5-HT is just a chemical messenger at which point you need to look at how 5-HT is broken down or the levels produced and then you need to look at the different concentrations and the activation of relevant nuclei in the brain itself. This is just ONE of the monoamine neurotransmitters at best they are read up on 3 monoamines which is admirable considering its self taught however the physiology of the brain is missing and the pathology of the disease is missing. Then there is the interaction between neurotransmitters which makes the situation more complex and these people think they have stumbled on gold with a vitamin supplement that is free if you stand outside. The problem is the science behind vitamin D is relatively new but blown up by the media, journals not so much. Now when this happens you get your health junkies jumping on the band wagon. Whats even more concerning is that they advocate it as a treatment so some poor sod reading here might think "hey I dont need my citalopram I can try these supplements because here are people who have what i have" and control can be lost and the patient could suffer a relapse and end up worse than they were or dead by suicide. Some people dont even realise it takes a couple days for citalopram for example to have an effect and when you break therapy you cause problems with the control and the relapse usually leaves the patient in a worse boat so when they put on the old dose again it wont work as effectively or at all. Not to mention you will get support from anecdotal evidence and placebo effects.

Its also very common for depressed patients not to want to take their medication, because no body likes taking their medication this is why they seek that attractive non-existent holy grail. On top of that people dont understand what depression is because its not objective they cant see the disease they cant measure the disease its within the brain itself so that belittling attitude of "oh its in your mind so just get rid of it" is not possible. As I used to explain to the parents "would you tell your child to stand up if they were paralysed?".

So thereby its a proper pathology and to suggest something as silly as dietary change as a CURE is a very dangerous thing.
 
RiaX said:
However if you on other medications keep in mind St john wort causes strain on the liver and may interfere with the metabolism of chronic drugs.
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Good point. I googled it & seems to interact a bit @ photo-sensitivity. Will ask my doc though.
 
HavocXphere said:
Good point. I googled it & seems to interact a bit @ photo-sensitivity. Will ask my doc though.
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yeah it can cause jaundice. However dont be too alarmed just keep an eye out for yellow patches on your skin (where there was no injury because bruises can turn yellow as well) and if you spot any simply stop the st johns and it will normalise.

Secondly I wouldnt bother too much about it (depends on your other medications and only if there is a known interaction) dont waste your money paying for a consult if your Dr is willing to help you over the phone for free then go for it. If you got a pharmacist you trust and is a proper pharmacist like the same guy you deal with for every script and stuff talk to them its free.

If you no other significant meds then dont worry about it

As always if you unsure seek advice R350 consult now may save you expensive hospital bills later
 
RiaX said:
People also have no clue how the brain works and how drugs interact with the brain,
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I ask this again. How can you claim that only anti-depressants will work while admitting that we have no clue how the brain works? It is clear you have no clue what you're talking about.

RiaX said:
They call red herrings and strawmen yet they cant see what im trying to point out because they simply dont understand the mechanisms that are in play.
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Red herrings and straw men can't point out anything. They are logical fallacies which as I pointed out will lead you to believe scurvy can't be treated with Vitamin C.

RiaX said:
The problem is applying common simplistic thinking to a field that its very complex.
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Exactly what you are doing.

RiaX said:
If I discovered a cure for depression tomorrow id sell it under patent to a pharmaceutical company they will buy it for a couple hundred million dollars id retire their stocks will go up and move on to the next disease or optimize the current drug and make even more money. Though they look at the R1200 a month they pay for like seroquel and think that actually means something to the industry - that is for the local boys like clicks and the psych dr and so forth.
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I ask you again to explain how you're going to 1) patent a natural cure and 2) make these kinds of figures on something that your competitor sells for R170/month?

RiaX said:
The next thing you are absolutely correct. Patients are quick to dismiss the pharmacological agents and boast they ineffective yet they ineffective because the patient is not taking responsibility.
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No it's actual studies that show they're ineffective. The ones that every researcher values but you dismiss as useless. It's arrogant to assume that most failures are because of patients not complying instead of the drugs not working.

RiaX said:
The problem is the science behind vitamin D is relatively new
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Yes it's very new but also the most promising field since antibiotics were discovered. That is the view of any serious researcher on the subject. Don't make the mistake to think that the call for more research is saying it may just be another fad. More research needs to be done only to determine the exact effect and not if there's an effect as that has already been determined. As they say don't mock what you haven't tried and know nothing about. Your insensitivity (just shut up and take what we give you) towards people with a serious illness is astounding and you're doing your field more harm than good.
 
:wtf: what does this oke read lol

nice trick puling everything out of context, im not entertaining your **** now
 
RiaX said:
:wtf: what does this oke read lol

nice trick puling everything out of context, im not entertaining your **** now
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No, don't give up yet!

***

Some interesting posts of late, thanks all. :)

My medication is 95 bucks a month and works, just as an aside.

Cheap cheap.
 
You know what's the worst part about being depressed? That feeling of helplessness. No matter what I do, I can't stop feeling the way I do. And the worst part is no matter what I do, I can't seem to find a way out of it. You need someone to speak to, but all your friends are always busy and even if you catch a moment to speak, you don't really know what to say because you already know what they're going to say and it's not going to help. You don't want to see a psychiatrist because you already know he's just going to affirm what you already know and it's not going to help.
 
I find that watching funny YouTube videos, or shows like Tosh.O, often lifts my mood when I'm down.
 
****, sorry. Nobody needs to read such whiny bullshjt here. I've been having a bit of a rough time lately and a few incidents over the last month or so have scratched open things I thought I've already dealt with and I guess everything just culminated last night. Sorry about that. :/
 
I feel quite depressed tonight. I'm alone in a foreign country after a two week long work trip which has ended in failure and I miss my family so badly. I feel incompetent and I'm scared I'm going to lose my loved ones.
 
Humberto said:
I feel quite depressed tonight. I'm alone in a foreign country after a two week long work trip which has ended in failure and I miss my family so badly. I feel incompetent and I'm scared I'm going to lose my loved ones.
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I'm sorry to hear that Humberto. Worrying about your loved ones when they're not near can be so stressful. I hope you feel better once you're back home. Strength to you.
 
Humberto said:
I feel quite depressed tonight. I'm alone in a foreign country after a two week long work trip which has ended in failure and I miss my family so badly. I feel incompetent and I'm scared I'm going to lose my loved ones.
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At least you know when they're thinking of you ;)
 
I feel flipping emo today :(
My car is gone and I don't know what I'm going to do.
I even miss my dead cat :(
 
Is this the moaning thread? Because between issues at work, at home and ongoing insomnia I'm taking a bit of strain myself.
 
btw is it depression is sometimes you can't stop crying and you don't even know why you're crying and feel suicidal and don't feel like doing the things you really love and feel lonely but don't feel like seeing people?
I lost a lot of friends because I get like that sometimes. (most likely out of them not caring, not because they didn't understand)
I always thought its depression but have never seen someone about it.
 
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