Depression.

[Swa]

Wow, ok. I'm asking that question for this reason: I'm still not fully convinced that depression is a "real" illness. Not real as in it doesn't exist, but real as in it can be cured without drugs. I think it's more of a mood problem influenced by other aspects in your life. For example, when I was younger and very poor I often felt despondent or maybe depressed. Days or weeks would go by where I couldn't feel happy. I used drugs and drank a lot and that made me feel better. Eventually I got out of the mentality and grew as a person and in business, I moved to the US, I made something of myself. I then stopped using drugs completely a few years ago and I don't drink nearly as much. Like I said, smoking quit cold turkey as well. So maybe, it may be worth considering trying to get better without taking the prescription drugs and getting addicted to them. Again, I might be way out of my depth here.

It could be the case for a lot of depressions. Depression isn't a single illness but many which is why anti-depressants have a baseline success of 1% over placebo. You have to discover what it is your body needs or lacks. One doctor has described it that headache isn't caused by an aspirin deficiency.

The focus on SSRI's seems to have been the wrong treatment based on an incorrect theory that depression is caused by a serotonin deficiency. It actually seems that depression is caused by brain damage resulting from or not resulting from serotonin deficiency. Treating it with SSRI's therefor will help as more serotonin makes you feel better but they don't treat the problem. On the other hand there are people with below normal serotonin and no depression or normal serotonin and depression so that also seems like only one of many causes.

Magnesium has been found effective in 50% of cases of treatment resistant depression. Not enough sun is a cause of seasonal affective disorder. Some people respond to dopamine reuptake inhibitors instead of serotonin. If there's brain damage then none of these will have a complete effect though but there are some neuro growth factors like GABA that can help regenerate neurons.

 

[Swa]

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/4/tryptophan-the-fda-cruel-hoax/page-01
Some of this makes a lot of sense. Interesting that when pharmaceuticals are the subject you can barely find other pharmaceutical companies but when it's natural supplements they are falling over themselves to get them banned or regulated.

 

[copacetic]

Wow, ok. I'm asking that question for this reason: I'm still not fully convinced that depression is a "real" illness. Not real as in it doesn't exist, but real as in it can be cured without drugs. I think it's more of a mood problem influenced by other aspects in your life. For example, when I was younger and very poor I often felt despondent or maybe depressed. Days or weeks would go by where I couldn't feel happy. I used drugs and drank a lot and that made me feel better. Eventually I got out of the mentality and grew as a person and in business, I moved to the US, I made something of myself. I then stopped using drugs completely a few years ago and I don't drink nearly as much. Like I said, smoking quit cold turkey as well. So maybe, it may be worth considering trying to get better without taking the prescription drugs and getting addicted to them. Again, I might be way out of my depth here.

You are.

*edit*

That being said, it's a very complex topic, as per Swa.

But as for depression being a 'real' illness, I can but only shrug at that. Do you think schizophrenia is a real illness?

Also, on a personal level - I resisted taking meds for probably about a decade and a half. I can't say this decision ****ed up my life (that was all me), but with hindsight, I do indeed wish I had tried them earlier on. I do certainly hope that there will be a point where I stop taking them, but I know from bitter experience that time is not now.

 

[Velenoso]

You are.

I thought you might agree there. Will you elaborate?

 

[copacetic]

I thought you might agree there. Will you elaborate?

There should already be an extensive edit.

 

[copacetic]

Don't get me wrong though - If you view depression as a continuum, you will obviously get people on the one end who would not know depression if it walked up and punched them in the face, and on the other end, you will have people who are so depressed the only thing they can motivate themselves to do is kill themselves.

Most of us will fall somewhere in that range - It is logical to assume that some percentage of people can deal with their depression sans medication. It's also logical to assume that between those that are able to do this, and those that suffer from treatment resistant 'I'm going to kill myself' levels of depression, are a group that need further assistance, and that's where medications can help. It's not a miracle solution, but it's often better than the alternative.

The gist being that if you were able to lift yourself out, that's absolutely great, but it does not extrapolate to others necessarily being able to do the same.

 

[maumau]

Ecstasy or X. I don't know what it could be called now. That's what it was called when I used to do it.

Ah! Thanks Velenoso, always knew it as E

 

[bumbledore]

For the old dose it was about R220.00 per month I think, but now it will be R440.00. Not a disaster, but eish .... that is a R400.00 that is going to hit hard at the moment. Time to quit smoking again me thinks.

Lucky for you - bupropion / wellbutrin (a.k.a Zyban) is a relatively effective smoking cessation medication
Always a good time!

There was high quality evidence that, when used as the sole pharmacotherapy, bupropion significantly increased long-term cessation (44 trials, N = 13,728, risk ratio [RR] 1.62, 95% confidence interval [CI] 1.49 to 1.76).

i.e. you are 1.6x more likely to quit smoking using bupropion compared to "cold-turkey"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD000031.pub4/abstract

 

[Indigogirl]

The biggest issue I have with chemicals are that it kills my creativity. Turns it off.
Seems like what Ockie says might be true, a male friend of mine on Wellbutrin swears by it. ( same occupation so he obviously doesn't have the no creativity problem)

Oh and the little social filter I have also goes away... People already don't like me.

Bloody chemicals, other people turn fat. ( Blabla blab fat shaming. Whatever ) I just want to not turn into a fatty again and be able to be productive.

This crying about everything pisses me off. Wtf is it with the waterworks?! I don't cry.

BIG hug - it is a crappy space - been there.

Two things - Cipralex is good, was on it for over 3 years - would go back on it in a wink if I needed to do so. It is the difference between a dark hole that you cannot see out of and being able to cope - and be creative. The second thing is sugar. If you have a "sweet tooth" and crave sugar - you might well be having issues with something similar to reactive hypoglycaemia. It can leave one with all the feelings of anxiety, confusion, mood-swings, weepiness, etc. that are associated with depression.

Regarding Cipralex - if you do use it, don't start with a full dose immediately, start with a half dose for the first few days. It makes you feel stoned - not the nicest kind of stoned either. Once that feeling goes away, step up to full dose. Same coming off. Come off it slowly. Even though it is not 'addictive', it is much easier to give your body time to adjust. There are side effects, but they are manageable and are far less problematic than being in the abyss.

Sterkte!

 

[Ancalagon]

Wow, ok. I'm asking that question for this reason: I'm still not fully convinced that depression is a "real" illness. Not real as in it doesn't exist, but real as in it can be cured without drugs. I think it's more of a mood problem influenced by other aspects in your life. For example, when I was younger and very poor I often felt despondent or maybe depressed. Days or weeks would go by where I couldn't feel happy. I used drugs and drank a lot and that made me feel better. Eventually I got out of the mentality and grew as a person and in business, I moved to the US, I made something of myself. I then stopped using drugs completely a few years ago and I don't drink nearly as much. Like I said, smoking quit cold turkey as well. So maybe, it may be worth considering trying to get better without taking the prescription drugs and getting addicted to them. Again, I might be way out of my depth here.

As copacetic says, you are out of your depth.

I've been depressed a few times in my life. Some of them quite severely - one time was as recently as this year. I've even see a neurologist (ie a real doctor) who said that I'm predisposed to depression because of my mother (who was also prone to depression).

Through double blind placebo controlled trials, we know some treatments that are effective (compared to a placebo). These include SSRIs, SNRIs, exercise, magnesium, vitamin D and fish oil rich in Omega 3. Yes, SSRIs are not the only answer. But the point is, all of those affect brain chemistry in some way.

The way I see it is that the issues that you experience in your life can trigger depressive episodes, but usually only if you are already susceptible to depression due to your brain chemistry. Its like, two people could experience the same trauma, and one of them would be depressed, and the other not. Your brain chemistry, the way your brain works, is what causes this difference.

Its not that the one guy is a wuss or he just needs to suck it up. He can't help it. His brain chemistry is outside of his control (although we like to think otherwise). Yes, he can take Vitamin D and fish oil, and he can get exercise. But do you think he feels like that when he is depressed? He doesn't even feel like getting out of bed, let alone getting himself better. He sees no hope for the future.

You see, depression is a chemical/hormonal imbalance, but when you are depressed, that's not what you believe. You believe that you feel this way because things in your life really are that bad - that there is no way out and no hope. That makes it difficult to pull yourself out, because you think the problem is your life and not your brain chemistry.

 

[whatwhat]

You see, depression is a chemical/hormonal imbalance, but when you are depressed, that's not what you believe. You believe that you feel this way because things in your life really are that bad - that there is no way out and no hope. That makes it difficult to pull yourself out, because you think the problem is your life and not your brain chemistry.

and that is something one doesn't realize either. When I got put on anti-depressant meds I thought the doctor was wrong but I took them in any case. 2 weeks later I could see the difference in my life, and how things should really be.

 

[STS]

what happens when you're so depressed that you refuse/cannot take medication?

 

[Ockie]

what happens when you're so depressed that you refuse/cannot take medication?

I dont think I have ever heard of a depressed person refusing/cannot take their pills. People that normally do not want to take their pills, or go off it without council from their doctor are usually mentally unstable and suffer from some form of psychosis or is schizophrenic etc?

 

[STS]

I dont think I have ever heard of a depressed person refusing/cannot take their pills. People that normally do not want to take their pills, or go off it without council from their doctor are usually mentally unstable and suffer from some form of psychosis or is schizophrenic etc?

Yeah

 

[whatwhat]

I dont think I have ever heard of a depressed person refusing/cannot take their pills. People that normally do not want to take their pills, or go off it without council from their doctor are usually mentally unstable and suffer from some form of psychosis or is schizophrenic etc?

Depends. I stopped taking my tablets after about 4 months, out of a 6 month cycle. I was happy with what I achieved, and knew where I needed to change the aspect of my life to be better. The pills aren't a permanent solution, well I didn't want them to be for me.

So far so good.

 

[Ockie]

Yeah

The fact that you are brining it up though would tell me that you know you are supposed to take them, but is refusing to do so willing. People that goes off their meds from what I understand will have a episode or a break, cant or dont remember they are supposed to take their meds, and so their condition spirals out of control again. You seem to know you are supposed to be taking meds, but simply is not doing so?

 

[Ockie]

Depends. I stopped taking my tablets after about 4 months, out of a 6 month cycle. I was happy with what I achieved, and knew where I needed to change the aspect of my life to be better. The pills aren't a permanent solution, well I didn't want them to be for me.

So far so good.

That is fine. I am talking about people that is not doing well and is still suffering but refusing to take their meds. Not people that feel they can now cope enough to start going off the meds. I certainly dont want to be on them on a permanent basis either. It should be done with doctor supervision though.

 

[STS]

The fact that you are brining it up though would tell me that you know you are supposed to take them, but is refusing to do so willing. People that goes off their meds from what I understand will have a episode or a break, cant or dont remember they are supposed to take their meds, and so their condition spirals out of control again. You seem to know you are supposed to be taking meds, but simply is not doing so?

I am really too depressed to even take my meds, i tossed them in the bin it's stupid, but i can't explain half the **** i do

 

[bumbledore]

what happens when you're so depressed that you refuse/cannot take medication?

Then those people are certified under the Mental Health Care Act as either involuntary (i.e. refusing admission) or assisted (i.e. not actively refusing admission but not able to make an informed choice on whether to be in hospital or not) users, and admitted to a government hospital. There they undergo a 72-hour observation, by 2 different mental health practitioners (one must be a doctor), and if still though to be unwell at the end of the observation period, are then transferred through to a dedicated tertiary level psychiatric hospital.

Most private hospitals are not able to take patients that have been certified under the Mental Health Care Act, due to structural and legislative barriers.

For severely depressed patients, who refuse to eat / drink / medication (and it definitely does happen, I promise), then ECT (electro-convulsive treatment) is the safest, and arguably the best, way forward. It can give a rapid relief in depressive symptoms, quicker than most medications in fact.

 

[bumbledore]

I dont think I have ever heard of a depressed person refusing/cannot take their pills. People that normally do not want to take their pills, or go off it without council from their doctor are usually mentally unstable and suffer from some form of psychosis or is schizophrenic etc?

This is not true.

People have innumerable reasons for coming off medications (felt better, side-effects, drug interactions, felt worse, felt nothing, pill burden) but this doesn't mean they are psychotic by any means.

Going even further, refusal to take medication isn't necessarily a sign of mental instability either, provided that the person refusing is doing so for rational reasons. For example: "I'm not going to take my antidepressants that the doctor prescribed because I know someone who committed suicide while taking them and I'd rather go for talk therapy," is very reasonable. However, "I don't want to take antidepressants because I believe that every time I swallow a tablet, a baby dies in Africa from malaria," is not (and would be grounds for a more thorough assessment)...

Edit: What complicates this a lot further, is the concept of heterogeneity as it applies to most mental illness. Basically: my depression is the same, yet different, from yours; your depression is the same, yet different, from his; his depression is the same, yet different, from hers; and her depression is the same, yet different, from mine...

Perhaps what we consider to be "depression" is really an umbrella term for many different conditions that present in similar ways, however respond differently to individual treatments. Could explain why the antidepressant I'm taking worked for me, but not for you, or him or her...