Do we need a harder lockdown?

[Wary GOM]

Also doesn't always end up the way people think. Natural immunity can be built up, but the safest way is via vaccines.
As if we had to rely on herd immunity for other diseases we'd all have been immune to smallpox, polio, measles and such. Yet we're not, the only reason it's under control are thanks to us intervening and creating a vaccine to build herd immunity, there was no natural immunity to them.

In large measure herd immunity only develops with a disease that is not extremely deadly, otherwise so many people die before passing on the immunity that the population is effectively wiped out.

 

[XSV1]

Because we have both had the first variant of Covid-19, my partner and I have volunteered for Covid-19 ICU duty. We’re both medically qualified (my partner is a specialist) and we did ICU refresher courses during the initial wave.

Any of the Covid-19 naysayers are most welcome to join us in one of the Covid wards. The good news is that because you believe the garbage that Covid-19 isn’t worse than a normal ‘flu, we won’t need to give you any Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). When you get the disease, or are involved in an accident, or have a heart attack, you also won't need a bed because all the beds are full.

The hospitals in the Western and Eastern Cape are overflowing (some at +180% capacity). Patients are on military camp beds in the corridors of some hospitals. At some hospitals in the EC there are no oxygen points for patients under investigation (PUI).

KZN private hospitals (including Ballito and Hillcrest) have no available beds.

The Gauteng hospitals are not far behind the rest of the country. Some of the private hospitals in the northern suburbs of Joburg have no beds, partly because they don’t have enough nursing staff to man the hospitals... they're all off sick.

We need to get a collective wakeup and obey the basic effing rules of masking, sanitising and social distancing.

 

[Vrotappel]

The previous hard lock down destroyed the livelihood of many and placed many on the street.

How do we measure the lives lost because of that?

 

[Jupiter2]

From what I have understood, it really is the most vulnerable people in the rural areas and mainly in townships where it is normal for people to share their drink and ciggies with friends, and although the Gov. has never openly said this, but it is a fact. So why haven't the Tavern Ass. thought of "buy a beer PLUS interchangeable colour coded drinking tops." (like the sports bottles) Otherwise no beer, or they could give these away as a gimmick. It is far better to be pro-active than complaining and being critical. Ciggies...if buying a cig, or a box or a carton include small colour coded cig-holders, for sharing. So maybe SAB & The Tabaco companies, should pick this up and run with it.. And I am sure there will be many put down responds to this, but at least I am trying...no one else is thinking out of the box

 

[The_MAC]

From what I have understood, it really is the most vulnerable people in the rural areas and mainly in townships where it is normal for people to share their drink and ciggies with friends, and although the Gov. has never openly said this, but it is a fact. So why haven't the Tavern Ass. thought of "buy a beer PLUS interchangeable colour coded drinking tops." (like the sports bottles) Otherwise no beer, or they could give these away as a gimmick. It is far better to be pro-active than complaining and being critical. Ciggies...if buying a cig, or a box or a carton include small colour coded cig-holders, for sharing. So maybe SAB & The Tabaco companies, should pick this up and run with it.. And I am sure there will be many put down responds to this, but at least I am trying...no one else is thinking out of the box

The problem is that there is no box to think out of, so all you are doing is just thinking, ordinary thinking..

 

[LCBXX]

no, the constitution clearly states that no-one shall be permitted from barring your movement within our borders, or stop you from leaving.


The SANDF going into a rural area and beating on people is profoundly worrisome and should enrage us all - New years, we all saw the vids of the people standing in their own yards, being yeld at by police to go inside. The one lady was just chilling on her doorstep, 10m from her gate, in her PJs and the police yelled at her. Then the lighter, stupidity of people being pulled out the water for surfing, chased down like thugs.
Everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected.

It also states that we may not be stopped from trading and earning a legal wage.

It also states that we have autonomy of our bodies, freedom of choice how to manage our own health and that we will not be subjected to medical experiments.

Under the disaster act, our constitution, in the eyes of the ncccc does not exist. Regardless if I agree or disagree about the restrictions and levels. The fact about lawfulness is that almost every single restriction is a clear violation of our bill of rights/constitutional rights. Heck, even their meetings fall short on the tests.
Everyone has the right of access to any information held by the state, and any information that is held by another person and that is required for the exercise or protection of any rights.

Therefore, the court cases, that are being dismissed, on whatever grounds, need to be heard by our constitutional court judges, they are there to interpret the LAW AS IT IS WRITTEN. Those judges are the ones that have studied the constitution and have the scope and knowledge to rule on cases pertaining to the supposed infringements of such rights. None of the lower courts can override the most important law of our land. Not one person is above it, including the NCCC. Currently, the NCCC has no oversight.

As to the rational for any more lockdowns
It's an established principle, then, that rights can be limited. The challenge, though, is to allow them to be limited only under strict conditions. If the Bill of Rights simply allowed any kind of restriction, its very purpose would be undermined.

As a result, section 36 of the Constitution, known as the limitation clause, lays down a test that any limitation must meet. The two central concepts in this test are reasonableness and proportionality. Any restriction on a right must be reasonable and must be proportional in that the impact or extent of the restriction must match the importance of the aim served by the limitation of the right.


It is my opinion that the NCCC is using section 36 as a sledgehammer with no end in sight. Sure, lockdown for 30 days, then we see-saw into lower numbers, open up, then lockdown again? Where is the line? When is the line? I don't know, I don't have any answers. I am just observing. Right now, I see the main argument is, if you do not support lockdowns and restrictions (not talking about sanitise and mask), then you are a COLD HEARTED SELFISH ******* who wants everyone to die. The other extreme is, if you do support all this, then surely you have given in to a nanny state and do not care about economics nor do you understand them.


I think the truth is somewhere in between. Many of us, feel a hybrid of emotions. Today, I am scared. I am scared that our economy will collapse and we will be run to the borders like zim ran to us. But when my dad was lying in icu with covid, I was scared of the virus. Two things may be true at the same time. Two things may be false, even if contradictory, at the same time.

EDIT/ easy to digest read about the bill of rights linky

Wow, thanks for this detailed writeup!

A concern I raised from the onset of the lockdown in March 2020 was that there were no conditions laid down that defined how long this state of emergency will be or what the required conditions would need to be for it to be finally lifted.
There still aren't any, which leads me to conclude that we're going to be in this state indefinitely.

 

[BeerIsNotGood...]

How about a grown-up, considerate population

Gotta love how its always the populations fault

 

[rustypup]

masking, sanitising and social distancing.

We have never done this as a species, in any culture. Keep on wishing, though. Pretty sure the human animal will wake up any second now...

 

[LCBXX]

Because we have both had the first variant of Covid-19, my partner and I have volunteered for Covid-19 ICU duty. We’re both medically qualified (my partner is a specialist) and we did ICU refresher courses during the initial wave.

Any of the Covid-19 naysayers are most welcome to join us in one of the Covid wards. The good news is that because you believe the garbage that Covid-19 isn’t worse than a normal ‘flu, we won’t need to give you any Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). When you get the disease, or are involved in an accident, or have a heart attack, you also won't need a bed because all the beds are full.

The hospitals in the Western and Eastern Cape are overflowing (some at +180% capacity). Patients are on military camp beds in the corridors of some hospitals. At some hospitals in the EC there are no oxygen points for patients under investigation (PUI).

KZN private hospitals (including Ballito and Hillcrest) have no available beds.

The Gauteng hospitals are not far behind the rest of the country. Some of the private hospitals in the northern suburbs of Joburg have no beds, partly because they don’t have enough nursing staff to man the hospitals... they're all off sick.

We need to get a collective wakeup and obey the basic effing rules of masking, sanitising and social distancing.

Are you working in a public hospital?

 

[sl0m0_za]

With a recorded 21832 new cases yesterday, including 844* reported deaths, do you think we need to go back to a harder lockdown? Or do we need to give the current level (three) time to work? Or perhaps dispense with lockdown altogether?

*It should be noted that of the 844 the 452 reported from the Eastern Cape were as result of a "data reconciliation dating between May and November 2020"

The "Record" level of new cases was due to the "record" level of testing - tests went from 45,000 to 70,000, a fact which is omitted to try to scare people. The percentage of positive cases per test actually went down by around 1%.

 

[Vrotappel]

From what I have understood, it really is the most vulnerable people in the rural areas and mainly in townships where it is normal for people to share their drink and ciggies with friends, and although the Gov. has never openly said this, but it is a fact. So why haven't the Tavern Ass. thought of "buy a beer PLUS interchangeable colour coded drinking tops." (like the sports bottles) Otherwise no beer, or they could give these away as a gimmick. It is far better to be pro-active than complaining and being critical. Ciggies...if buying a cig, or a box or a carton include small colour coded cig-holders, for sharing. So maybe SAB & The Tabaco companies, should pick this up and run with it.. And I am sure there will be many put down responds to this, but at least I am trying...no one else is thinking out of the box

These in the townships are still smoking and drinking. The informal economy does not care about lock downs.

 

[Cammie]

We cannot go back to level 5, for the simple reason that government is completely incapable of feeding millions of underprivileged people in their shacks. It cannot envisage working solutions, partly because it cannot afford to, and partly because it wouldn't have the imagination to do so even if it could. The NCCC should not be allowed to impose ANY further trade restrictions, beyond the invidious, but ultimately necessary, alcohol ban. If we had more competent ministers, or at least a less felonious government, we might have considered it, but allowing them to do their dirty worst, as they did last year, is a complete no no.

 

[LCBXX]

These in the townships are still smoking and drinking. The informal economy does not care about lock downs.

It would be very very non-PC for MSM, Karens and Johans to blame the townships as the cause of the surge in infections. It's PC to blame Rage and holidaymakers.

 

[LCBXX]

We cannot go back to level 5, for the simple reason that government is completely incapable of feeding millions of underprivileged people in their shacks. It cannot envisage working solutions, partly because it cannot afford to, and partly because it wouldn't have the imagination to do so even if it could. The NCCC should not be allowed to impose ANY further trade restrictions, beyond the invidious, but ultimately necessary, alcohol ban. If we had more competent ministers, or at least a less felonious government, we might have considered it, but allowing them to do their dirty worst, as they did last year, is a complete no no.

I didn't know the ANC was responsible to feed the "millions of underprivileged people in their shacks".

 

[IceyQ]

Wow, thanks for this detailed writeup!

A concern I raised from the onset of the lockdown in March 2020 was that there were no conditions laid down that defined how long this state of emergency will be or what the required conditions would need to be for it to be finally lifted.
There still aren't any, which leads me to conclude that we're going to be in this state indefinitely.

This.

I agree. It should worry us all. Personally, I think each province, should be taking up the role, of governing their people. I see it as lying down a slab of concrete in a massive warehouse. If you just brute force pour concrete, without paying attention section by section, as soon as the concrete dries and you apply any force, the concrete will crack. Allow the leaders of each province to have an active role, and say. This nccc thing isn't working. Remember the story of the king in GOT, where the whispers in the ear by his advisor?

So far it's been a complete fup, this nccc thing. Our elected leaders need to do just that, elbow to elbow with ramaphosa. Not this cabal of people who overnight became our judge, jury, and executioners.

 

[LCBXX]

This.

I agree. It should worry us all. Personally, I think each province, should be taking up the role, of governing their people. I see it as lying down a slab of concrete in a massive warehouse. If you just brute force pour concrete, without paying attention section by section, as soon as the concrete dries and you apply any force, the concrete will crack. Allow the leaders of each province to have an active role, and say. This nccc thing isn't working. Remember the story of the king in GOT, where the whispers in the ear by his advisor?

So far it's been a complete fup, this nccc thing. Our elected leaders need to do just that, elbow to elbow with ramaphosa. Not this cabal of people who overnight became our judge, jury, and executioners.

Pity that what you're proposing is against the communist narrative. In what world would the ANC allow individual freedoms, and rights, to trump collectivism?

 

[FNfal]

You guys can wear masks and social distance as much as you want but as long as the taxis are running 100%+full the out come will be the same .
Herd immunity incoming .

 

[IceyQ]

Pity that what you're proposing is against the communist narrative. In what world would the ANC allow individual freedoms, and rights, to trump collectivism?

this is correct. Unfortunately, as long as the anc runs the way it's currently run, everyone else's concerns, thoughts, and wishes, are but a wee into the wind

 

[Greggles]

Masks. Sanitise. Social distance.

Do this and respect others space and this will all get sorted over time. My wife and I both tested positive and took the mandatory 14 days isolation. Walked every now and then to exercise. Got sunlight and no matter how tired kept a little active. All better now. We were not reckless. It's doing the rounds and everyone is at risk. The first three rules will at least keep it at bay a little longer.

 

[Jupiter2]

These in the townships are still smoking and drinking. The informal economy does not care about lock downs.

well that really is the whole point, and as the people are still drinking and smoking ...well I said all in my original post