raneels
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Question of the Day: Main reasons you wouldn't get an EV?
Do you think kids should be spanked?
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copacetic
King of the Hippies
Hi,
Anecdotal evidence and a tiny sample size is an excellent way to support our existing biases, but not a very good way to ferret out the truth of a matter.
Which is not to say that these accounts necessarily mean a person is incorrect, but it's worth recognising in general our very prevalent weakness in this regard. We're all guilty of it.
My feeling is that there are obviously a variety of factors that ultimately shape a human. I very much doubt that spanking or not spanking is the linchpin factor in what is undoubtedly a hugely complex equation, and if it's not it follows then it's surely not necessary (in the production of a 'good child')?
On the continuum of tapping a kid's hand to wailing away until their spine cracks, given human nature and the attendant frustrations of life, I prefer a world in which physical violence of any sort is the unpreferred option, even if that at the the lower end of the scale is very obviously not in itself damaging to the person it's being visited upon.
But whatever, it's your life and your kid. I'm not your dad.
Regards,
copa
Anecdotal evidence and a tiny sample size is an excellent way to support our existing biases, but not a very good way to ferret out the truth of a matter.
Which is not to say that these accounts necessarily mean a person is incorrect, but it's worth recognising in general our very prevalent weakness in this regard. We're all guilty of it.
My feeling is that there are obviously a variety of factors that ultimately shape a human. I very much doubt that spanking or not spanking is the linchpin factor in what is undoubtedly a hugely complex equation, and if it's not it follows then it's surely not necessary (in the production of a 'good child')?
On the continuum of tapping a kid's hand to wailing away until their spine cracks, given human nature and the attendant frustrations of life, I prefer a world in which physical violence of any sort is the unpreferred option, even if that at the the lower end of the scale is very obviously not in itself damaging to the person it's being visited upon.
But whatever, it's your life and your kid. I'm not your dad.
Regards,
copa
I'm late to the discussion but Jordan Peterson hit it on the head.
He said something to the lines of spanking your child is hardly the worst thing you can do to them. Parents do not discipline their kids and end up "hating" them. And if you really want to mess up your kid, punish them when they do something right. Even better if you do it randomly.
He said something to the lines of spanking your child is hardly the worst thing you can do to them. Parents do not discipline their kids and end up "hating" them. And if you really want to mess up your kid, punish them when they do something right. Even better if you do it randomly.
Sala_mander
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Apology accepted (notwithstanding the self-absolution that accompanies it).
Then what is? Time-outs? Loss of cellphone privileges? Stand in a corner? The naughty step? Trying to reason with a petulant five year old? Do you think we haven't tried these things? While many are quick to condemn a spank as 'violent' and 'unnecessary', they are at a loss to provide effective alternatives. And of course, ignoring the fact that 'violence' doesn't have to be physical to be violent...there's emotional violence as well. Where are the studies on that?
But who are you? You're SlinkyMike. You could be a child-psychiatrist trying to ensure job security. You could be a paedophile trying to create a market. You could be an armchair warrior with too much time on his hands, well-read but with no practical experience. Coming onto forums like these and expecting everyone to view your opinion as the messianic closer to a globally hotly contested debate is just a bit naive, don't you think?
But again, it's only the truth to you, and those who already agree with you. Thats why it's called an opinion. A reasonable person accepts that his opinion is subject to scrutiny in the face of opposing evidence.
Respected they may be, but Psychology Today and Darcia Narvaez Ph.D arent there to provide a viable solution when the child is throwing a screaming tantrum because they can't have the toy or the sweet in the supermarket. Can I turn around and hold Psychology Today responsible for that behaviour? Or you, SlinkyMike? Of course not. I take responsibility for the behaviour of my children until they reach an age where they can answer for themselves, and equipping them with the tools they will need to deal with the world they live in. Until the study comes along which offers to absolve me of that responsibility, I will raise them in the way that I believe works best: Love at all times, reason at all times, reason reinforced with a spank if/when necessary.
Yes, I did consider that, and I'm sorry if you were raised in that way. I have often found that those who condemn spanking outright come from a background where it was practiced harshly. But again, I believe that to do away with spanking altogether because some parents misapply it to an extreme degree is simply exchanging one form of extremity for another. As with all aspects of life, balance and discernment is required.
And thats my opinion, which is not based on science or Psychology Today, but on thousands of years of common sense.
Incidentally, there's a reason it's called 'Psychology Today'...and thats because it's not what psychology was yesterday, and likely not what it will be tomorrow. New doctors are often told that five years after medical school half of what they learned will be proven wrong, but nobody knows which half. Is that the kind of record you want to bank your childrens' lives on?
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SlinkyMike
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Time-outs and loss of privileges as they get older have worked beautifully for my family and even these measures are only taken when a healthy dialogue between the parental unit and the child has failed. I have never, once had to discipline a child who hasn't totally understood why and agreed that it needs to be done.
Also, and this is a bit uncomfortable but I'm fairly certain that even the spankers in this thread would agree that by five years of age spanking is way out of order and that by that age you should have some kind of level understanding between you and the kid.
I'm a parent with two kids, a teenager and a preschooler but that doesn't even matter. No one is attempting to be a messiah (dramatic much?) It's the reason that I have provided some scientific research. Research which is considered to be the closer of the corporal punishment debate.
It's the reason that I have provided some scientific research.
Hate to have to say this but it sounds like your kids are given to awful behavior. Despite which you're sticking to your failed modes of discipline. Again, I hate to be rude but it raises questions around your own capacity for understanding in these areas.
Let's talk about common sense very quickly... Question: do you enjoy hitting your children? I have to assume that you do not.
OK, given that my assumption is correct wouldn't it seem sensible then to seek alternatives to having to do that thing?
I understand that there are among us people who argue tat even if it feels terrible to do it, you do it for the sake of your kids - the old: "this is going to hurt me more than it will you" mindset.
Now imagine that there is completed research by leading psychologists indicating that actually that awful thing you have to force yourself to do from time to time is actually no good for the kids and there are more effective alternatives.
Don't you then at the very least go: "hmmm... lets have a look at these papers - dude, you for real?" Or do you simply idg your heels in, pull the wool over your own eyes and doggedly insist that you have done nothing wrong, you know, the way someone who knows they are wrong would react?
D3nz
Honorary Master
Absolutely. If someone is spanking their kid past preschool age, there is something very wrong with their parenting technique.
konfab
Honorary Master
Not disciplining your kids is a bad thing. This is what everyone here would agree with. The issue is that people mix up the hitting their kids, with disciplining them.
I think people here would agree that hitting a baby is particularly good parenting. And I assume they would have the same opinion on hitting a teenager.
So there is obviously a window between these two groups where they think it is OK.
Kids who are too young to know they are being naughty don't deserve the punishment as it will just seem to them that their parents are hurting them for no reason. If you hit a kid this age, it is abuse and lazy parenting as you couldn't be bothered to keep the kid out of mischief.
Kids that are mature enough to know their actions have consequences are also old enough to know that there are things they want. These things can simply be denied to shape behaviour, again, if you can't keep the kid out of mischief you are lazy.
A very good piece of evidence why I view hitting kids as wrong, is the very term that people use to describe it. Hitting which is exactly what people do when they "spank", has negative connotations. Since parents don't want to believe that they are doing something wrong to their kids, they simply use a euphemism. Using a term besides the correct term makes it that much easier to perform the action.
redspark
Expert Member
yebo
konfab
Honorary Master
Jordan Peterson is very interesting, regardless what he talks about.
Sala_mander
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Hey, mine too..! But very occasionally that includes a spank, when warranted. My kids know it's not off the table. BTW they don't see me as a 'parental unit'. I'm Daddy.
It's different for each child, hence the need for us to pay attention to each child and be discerning in how we apply discipline, given the proclivities of each one. To say that spanking no longer has to be applied after the age of five is a HUGE generalization based on what...? When you make baseless, sweeping statements like that, it does make me wonder if you actually have kids at all...? Unless your children are clones....?
A bit rich coming from someone who recently accused others who have a different opinion of 'bloody minded ignorance', 'outright stupidity' and called them 'morons.' Hypocrite much?
Considered by whom, when, and for how long? My children are not scientific experiments, or political pawns. They're human beings.
You didnt have to say it, but you did anyway. Also, you're quick with the assumptions. My kids are fine. Compared to my neighbours' kids, they're angels. Guess what the difference is. There are other highly favourable comparisons. We know we're on the right track.
Nope, nobody likes spanking their kids (at least not if they love them)...but it's over a lot sooner than a time-out is, and the lesson is clear and not soon forgotten. Do you enjoy watching your kids standing in the corner for however long? Is it possible that you're afraid of taking the tough decisions with regard to your kids? Are you afraid they will hate you for spanking them? Mine don't. Also, I don't hate my parents because they did it to me. Administering any kind of punishment should never be easy for a parent. If it is, you're doing it wrong.
There you go with the assumptions again. Do you think this has not been tried? Do you think we don't read? You're attacking me based on the false assumption that I just ignore the arguments and if I only read your research I would become a convert. I assure you the opposite is true. We are constantly looking at ways of improving our parenting. I even read Spock back in the day and as a young adult (pre-parenthood) I believed as you do. But 'completed research by leading psychologists...' is a phrase I have read far to often, in too many books and papers. It's usually only accurate for a time, if at all. 'New research indicates...'
But we don't raise our children on paper, we raise them in reality. We cherry-pick advice based on our experience coupled with what we know about our children - which is actually the key. If it's all the same to you, we'll continue the way we are. YMMV, ditto your results.
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I also recommend Kevin Leman's podcast on raising kids.
He wrote that "have a new kid by Friday" book. It's on itunes.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/dr-kevin-leman/id851950021?mt=2
He talks openly about the issues with 3 year olds tantrums to teenagers smoking and having sex.
He wrote that "have a new kid by Friday" book. It's on itunes.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/dr-kevin-leman/id851950021?mt=2
He talks openly about the issues with 3 year olds tantrums to teenagers smoking and having sex.
Will_rkr
Well-Known Member
Yes they should be. As long as it's not in anger, because then it would be abuse.
Other Pineapple Smurf
Honorary Master
As a parent of three kids (two with my current wife): The decision is up to each couple to decide. Its easier to discipline kids in a healthy stable family environment with two parents than there is in one with instability (including single parents).
My wife and I get regular compliments on how well disciplined our two kids are. We are strict but still believe in kids must be kids. They draw on our house walls without fear of punishment (I love their art), they scream like banshees when playing outside (my elderly neighbors love it as it reminds them of their kids) but they know the consequences of breaking our house rules.
Our kids have gotten smacks from a young age and the first thing they learn't is that the wooden spoon hurts regardless of who is dishing out the punishment.
But spanking itself is not the only discipline technique we have, and it should never be used in anger (easier said than done). We combine timeouts, financial penalties (10% of pocket money spot fine), removal of gaming privileges, etc
Most important thing is that both parents should always agree on the punishment and never ever question the punishment used in front of the kids.
One also needs to be constant, while the form of punishment might change for the offense, the impact should not.
My wife and I get regular compliments on how well disciplined our two kids are. We are strict but still believe in kids must be kids. They draw on our house walls without fear of punishment (I love their art), they scream like banshees when playing outside (my elderly neighbors love it as it reminds them of their kids) but they know the consequences of breaking our house rules.
Our kids have gotten smacks from a young age and the first thing they learn't is that the wooden spoon hurts regardless of who is dishing out the punishment.
But spanking itself is not the only discipline technique we have, and it should never be used in anger (easier said than done). We combine timeouts, financial penalties (10% of pocket money spot fine), removal of gaming privileges, etc
Most important thing is that both parents should always agree on the punishment and never ever question the punishment used in front of the kids.
One also needs to be constant, while the form of punishment might change for the offense, the impact should not.
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Grant
Honorary Master
if the carrot fails to impress, use the stick
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Well said! It is about balance and consistency, with the severity of the punishment escalating when required. In other words spanking is not the first option always and for every issue that arises.
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