Do you think Ramaphosa's planned corruption crackdown will work?

[Dups!]

This might surprise you, but I am a white, Afrikaans speaking male.

By your highlighting, I assume you agree with my points.

To clarify:
1) The idea that a white person should lead an African nation is not only naive, but patently stupid.
2) If you look in this forum, and many, many others like it, the people you see complaining about the ANC:

a) Are white, by and large
b) Would moan about anything any black government does, simply because it is a black and not a white government telling them what to do.

3) Racism is rampant in forums like these - and far more than any actual mistake by government, is the ACTUAL motivator for all the complaints.

4) The ANC does have opposition in the black part of our society, and it is the inherent racism of white people that prevents them from leveraging this to everyone's benefit. They would rather complain than work together with a black person.

5) These complainers about governmental theft neglect to remember that the apartheid government was one of the most corrupt to ever operate on the face of this planet, and that it's leaders exported BILLIONS, nay TRILLIONS
from this nation..

Thank you for this post.

Unfortunately, and as you pointed out, it will fall on deaf ears considering the attitude that is mostly due the upbringing of most people here on Mybroadband who can't get past the colour line.

 

[Cray]

I don't know, ask Pro-colonialism Zille, and whether you would be happy with such a leader (or the same people, cut from the same cloth, that came after her) if you were a black person.

Show me a single post-apartheid white leader in this nation that you can HONESTLY apply that sentence to.

Helen Zille was an anti-apartheid reporter but agree she has slid into senility now... If have now problem with Steenhuizen or Tony Leon, certainly not perfect but until such time as they let rampant corruption go unpunished they are a cut above the current ANC who think that having struggle credentials absolves people of all sins..

My point is that if the ANC made gold coins rain out of the sky, peole will still bitch about the stupid government causing them brain damage.

Why go that far, you could just say that if the ANC decided to appoint qualified people and stamped out corruption people would still bitch about them but even that is about as fanciful as gold coins raining from the sky..

I am not just blaming whites because the ANC is corrupt. I am blaming them because they refuse to party up under black leaders, or will only tolerate tokenised black leadership like under the DA. Everybody knows that the DA is about one thing only: Protecting white privileges. And the brown and black faces they hide behind are just stooges.

Which political party do you support?

 

[jucedupp]

Cray:

You said:

Last I checked the ANC got 60% of the vote, sure there is black opposition but blaming whites because the ANC is still in power seems like a bit of a fantasy... Not to mention that a lot of black people opposing the ANC voted for the EFF, is it the fault of whites that they don't want to work with people who accuse all whites of being land thieves?

I actually want to address this in detail, and I want all who are so worried about this to read carefully.

I am now a farmer - albeit a small scale farmer. I have land just outside Rustenburg, close to the infamous Marikana. So I feel I can comment on this.

The EFF might be calling us land thieves. It is untrue. Here is where the wrong happened.

Here is the issue. We allowed a government to make laws that allowed the forced removal of people from that land. We also, by implementing laws made it illegal for non white people to own land. We also allowed that government to make laws that made it illegal for non-whites to own companies. That government basically made it illegal for non-whites to effectively participate or compete in South Africa's economy.

From there on, MANY white people were GIVEN land or were able to obtain it on the cheap. Not because of fair economic competition, but because of unjust laws.

THAT is why land must be given back. Not because it was won in fair economic competition or because it was won by fair conquest. It was owned by white people because it was made unfairly easy for them to own it, against their own fellow citizens, not the citizens of another nation under conquest.

And to this day, the fact that blacks were not allowed to own property or compete fairly in the economy by law, is why white people, generations on, have a huge advantage over black people. That does not take 25 years to fix. That takes GENERATIONS. And that is why land that was unfairly obtained under these laws MUST be released back into the pool of available land. We got a lot of the land we own, or inherited, by the fact that someone was unethical and cheated.

 

[longboy]

This might surprise you, but I am a white, Afrikaans speaking male.

By your highlighting, I assume you agree with my points.

To clarify:
1) The idea that a white person should lead an African nation is not only naive, but patently stupid.
2) If you look in this forum, and many, many others like it, the people you see complaining about the ANC:

a) Are white, by and large
b) Would moan about anything any black government does, simply because it is a black and not a white government telling them what to do.

3) Racism is rampant in forums like these - and far more than any actual mistake by government, is the ACTUAL motivator for all the complaints.

4) The ANC does have opposition in the black part of our society, and it is the inherent racism of white people that prevents them from leveraging this to everyone's benefit. They would rather complain than work together with a black person.

5) These complainers about governmental theft neglect to remember that the apartheid government was one of the most corrupt to ever operate on the face of this planet, and that it's leaders exported BILLIONS, nay TRILLIONS
from this nation..

Joh. You sound like a real cuckold of note. Do you use vaseline when you bend over or do you take it dry?

 

[jucedupp]

Helen Zille was an anti-apartheid reporter but agree she has slid into senility now... If have now problem with Steenhuizen or Tony Leon, certainly not perfect but until such time as they let rampant corruption go unpunished they are a cut above the current ANC who think that having struggle credentials absolves people of all sins..



Why go that far, you could just say that if the ANC decided to appoint qualified people and stamped out corruption people would still bitch about them but even that is about as fanciful as gold coins raining from the sky..



Which political party do you support?

I used to vote DA. Then I got a conscience (or likely just grew up). At the moment there isn't a real party I support, so I voted Dagga party purely on the basis that they are the least likely to cause further ****. It's too much trouble for them But I honestly believe that the only way out for SA is mobilising the young black intelligentsia (The PhD's upward) and start a new political party where no old politicians are allowed. Black or white. No over 40's - fresh ideas, and fresh ways of doing things.

 

[jucedupp]

Joh. You sound like a real cuckold of note. Do you use vaseline when you bend over or do you take it dry?

Dunno? Ask your mom perhaps?

 

[Flanders]

Thank you for this post.

Unfortunately, and as you pointed out, it will fall on deaf ears considering the attitude that is mostly due the upbringing of most people here on Mybroadband who can't get past the colour line.

Whites vote in '92 referendum to end apartheid. Over the course of the next three decades, the country circles the drain ever closer because the majority would rather suffer and see the country burn than vote for a perceived "white" party.

But whites can't get past the colour line.

Sure.

 

[Jola]

Unfortunately, and as you pointed out, it will fall on deaf ears considering the attitude that is mostly due the upbringing of most people here on Mybroadband who can't get past the colour line.

All BS, it is mostly about criminality, gross incompetence and cadre deployment, it is not about race.

Remove those issues, and the colour arguments will fall away.

 

[jucedupp]

Whites vote in '92 referendum to end apartheid. Over the course of the next three decades, the country circles the drain ever closer because the majority would rather suffer and see the country burn than vote for a perceived "white" party.

But whites can't get past the colour line.

Sure.

Votes didn't vote in the 92 referendum to end Apartheid. (I know, I was there.) They voted to end sanctions.

It isn't a "perceived" white party. It is a white, white-wealth-and-privilege-protectionist party that cleverly hides it's agenda behind a few, well-paid-off coloured and black stooges. The only black guy to ever oppose their agenda (even if he was too weak to actually achieve anything against them) was booted.

 

[Cray]

From there on, MANY white people were GIVEN land or were able to obtain it on the cheap. Not because of fair economic competition, but because of unjust laws.

And to this day, the fact that blacks were not allowed to own property or compete fairly in the economy by law, is why white people, generations on, have a huge advantage over black people. That does not take 25 years to fix. That takes GENERATIONS. And that is why land that was unfairly obtained under these laws MUST be released back into the pool of available land. We got a lot of the land we own, or inherited, by the fact that someone was unethical and cheated.

Do you think it's appropriate to take away the land of a white person just because they are white and give it to someone else just because they are black? Do you have any detailed stats or sources of how many people where given land or got it cheaply versus how many paid market value for their land?

The problem you have is that you talk in broad strokes without nuance, in your view all whites are racist, they all refuse to work with blacks and they are all the beneficiaries of theft of land. It ignores than some people paid for their farms and land fairly, some of it was given by tribes and some was stolen, every situation needs to be dealt with individually such as has been done in the past but are you advocating that all white own land should be in the hands of black people, even land that was not previously settled?

 

[now05ster]

Well done to five who voted yes.

 

[Flanders]

Votes didn't vote in the 92 referendum to end Apartheid. (I know, I was there.) They voted to end sanctions.

It paved the way to end apartheid. I wasn't there however. I was too young to vote then as well as in the '94 elections.

As for where we are now being the fault of whites? Haha. Pure claptrap.

 

[Messugga]

Dunno? Ask your mom perhaps?

Into pegging?

 

[Zophos]

Votes didn't vote in the 92 referendum to end Apartheid. (I know, I was there.) They voted to end sanctions.

It isn't a "perceived" white party. It is a white, white-wealth-and-privilege-protectionist party that cleverly hides it's agenda behind a few, well-paid-off coloured and black stooges. The only black guy to ever oppose their agenda (even if he was too weak to actually achieve anything against them) was booted.

Ons kan twis oor wie in die drinkwater gek@k het tot ons blou in die gesig is, maar dit gaan nie die drol verwyder nie gaan dit....?

 

[Dups!]

Whites vote in '92 referendum to end apartheid. Over the course of the next three decades, the country circles the drain ever closer because the majority would rather suffer and see the country burn than vote for a perceived "white" party.

But whites can't get past the colour line.

Sure.

One thing I am not doing is defending the ANC, the party has messed up on too many occasions that it has become second nature to them. Yes, corruption is the main problem along with maladministration. I have not voted for the ANC- not even once, nor have I voted for the DA or the EFF- don't even mention the FF+. I am still waiting for the party that will truly put South Africa and her people first, not catering for whites only, blacks or "coloureds" only and/or Indian/Asians only. I hope that Herman Mashaba really steps up and plays a very big role in SA politics, to me he seems like he could do a good job. That is the one party that may get my vote depending on how things go with its progress.

Now that that is out of the way, the voting in that referendum does not mean that most white people in South Africa have moved past pre-conceived notions of other races- something that is really holding this country back. This argument of the referendum is so flawed as it misses some of the dynamics that led to the referendum.

Sadly the white people that do work towards a better country without letting race get in the way are far and few.

 

[deesef]

I'm sure a commission will at least be established?

Definitely!! Do you have any idea of how many lucrative contracts are awarded to cadres for a commission to "function"? After all, a commission cannot function without food, lodging, security, premises, etc. The ongoing state capture commission is costing about R10 million per month, for more than 3 years already...

A bunch of cadres are getting rich, but how many people have been prosecuted? How much of the stolen billions have been recovered.

 

[RedViking]

Meh

 

[Flanders]

One thing I am not doing is defending the ANC, the party has messed up on top many occasions that it has become second nature to them. Yes, corruption is the main problem along with maladministration. I have not voted for the ANC- not even once, nor have I voted for the DA or the EFF- don't even mention the FF+. I am still waiting for the party that will truly put South Africa and her people first, not catering for whites only, blacks or "coloureds" only and/or Indian/Asians only. I hope that Herman Mashaba really steps up and plays a very big role in AS politics, to me he seems like he could do a good job. That is the one party that may get my vote depending on how things go with its progress.

Now that that is out of the way, the voting in that referendum does not mean that most white people in South Africa have moved past pre-conceived notions of other races- something that is really holding this country back. This argument of the referendum is so flawed as it misses some of the dynamics that led to the referendum.

Sadly the white people that do work towards a better country without letting race get in the way are far and few.

So what are you suggesting?

I, for one, have no political allegiance towards the DA. If a better alternative were to come along I would give them a chance. If we're talking about dogma and hangups where politics is concerned, surely we need to focus on a majority propping up a failed party in a (for all intents and purposes) failed state?

I'm not even sure why whites are brought into this. The white vote counts for essentially nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jucedupp]

Do you think it's appropriate to take away the land of a white person just because they are white and give it to someone else just because they are black? Do you have any detailed stats or sources of how many people where given land or got it cheaply versus how many paid market value for their land?

The problem you have is that you talk in broad strokes without nuance, in your view all whites are racist, they all refuse to work with blacks and they are all the beneficiaries of theft of land. It ignores than some people paid for their farms and land fairly, some of it was given by tribes and some was stolen, every situation needs to be dealt with individually such as has been done in the past but are you advocating that all white own land should be in the hands of black people, even land that was not previously settled?

"Do you think it's appropriate to take away the land of a white person just because they are white and give it to someone else just because they are black?"

No - but all white farmers should at least give up part of their land - especially the land not under active food production - or select black co-owners (that's what I opted for).

"Do you have any detailed stats or sources of how many people where given land or got it cheaply versus how many paid market value for their land?"

Competition was removed - in fact it was neatly done. If you have a pool of say 1 million people competing (singly or in groups) to purchase land - then the law of supply and demand kicks in and determines the price, but if say only 50 000 people are able to purchase the land (by law) - the law of supply and demand also plays a role. In 1980 you could buy 20 hectares of land in Rustenburg for about a 100K. In 2000 that same piece of land cost 2.5 million. That is a huge jump for exactly the same piece land. That's WAY above inflation.

"It ignores than some people paid for their farms and land fairly, some of it was given by tribes and some was stolen, every situation needs to be dealt with individually such as has been done in the past but are you advocating that all white own land should be in the hands of black people, even land that was not previously settled?"

My family way back used to own Rysmierbult. The guy who owned it at the time, a guy named Rosslee, sold it for a pair of Vellies. Rysmierbult was one of the richest diamond deposits in South Africa. I think a lot of the land that was "fairly" sold by black people or tribes happened due to the same causes - a lack of education or even any idea of what it's worth. You know, in the same way that vast portions of the South American continent was "fairly" traded for shiny baubles. I don't know if you think such things are fair trade.

I know I speak in broad strokes - but it is hard to nuance in a setting like this. It's hard to convey intention and attitude.

If there was a broad-based across-the-board by land owners to include black farmers in co-ownership or give up some of their land (it has happened, but is insignificant) - then I would not say a word. For example - close to me there is a guy who owns a lot of land. Not doing much of anything on it. Then one day, I drive by and I see him and his wife standing in the veld, hugging each other and crying. Soon thereafter I heard that the part (not all) of the land he was doing nothing on was given to a black farmer under a land claim. Should I feel sorry for that guy? Because now, when I drive by there, the land is fully cultivated under Naartjie and Orange trees. I don't know whether he (the original owner) "fairly" obtained that land or not. It was probably inherited - so no financial skin off his back? Hurt pride, perhaps, but at least it's not just hoarding land going on there anymore. And I like naartjies.

What I am saying is that we have to economically empower everyone in this country, for our own sake. I don't agree that land should just be taken and given - the recipient must prove their ability to use it properly. That is why I am right now working with government and an NGO to transform my land into a training farm - the idea is to get government to fund training for matriculants who want to farm. And then give them land to go do it on, close to their communities. Can you see any real problem with that?

 

[yebocan]

nope...
gosh, the bloody banner colour is a bit intense