Dota 2 team disqualified for using illegal mouse

[Ninja'd]

As spotted by users on Reddit, Atún used macro commands to easily control the Dota 2 hero Meepo, a character which usually demands impressive micro-management skills.

This allowed the player to perform actions which were physically impossible without macros, such as commanding Meepo clones to teleport to the same location at the exact same time.

 

[Fulcrum29]

and secondly, Shaka Zulu identified a need for a short spear in the "traditional" warfare mindset, something that could both be thrown and push aside a shield in close range to defeat his enemy armed with a much longer weapon.

I think crying foul in combat when someone out thinks you is rather pointless. If creating a macro, recognising that you need a macro and getting someone to make it for you and then being able to use it when the circumstance is right for it, that's still skill.

LOL. It is an absurd statement in professional gaming, these players use macros to automate the timings on countdowns and queuing of execution. It is hardly a skill in practice, it is removing the micro-managing which part of the skill of the game and is a method of hacking.

 

[Kosmik]

Does it makes sense to have tournaments where macros are allowed? As I posted before, surely the ability to skilfully program and effectively use a macro should count towards the skill required to play the game?

Suppose its the old argument about enhancements. Think of steroids in sport, this is similar. I think when it comes to competitions they try to level the playing field as much as possible so true skill stands out, like handicapping in horse races or golf. One of the reasons I like the low graphics fps because regardless of what machine you run, you generally all have a decent framerate/response etc.

 

[DMNknight]

LOL. It is an absurd statement in professional gaming, these players use macros to automate the timings on countdowns and queuing of execution. It is hardly a skill in practice, it is removing the micro-managing which part of the skill of the game and is a method of hacking.

Not completely. Using a macro to click the mouse button 5 times while also "moving" the mouse certain increments in the downwards direction is very obviously cheating because gun recoil is meant to be mastered as a skill. So I agree.

However, using a macro to down tune your mouse sensitivity from 2600 DPi to 1200 DPi for pixel perfect aiming is not.
Knowing when and how to switch between DPi's is a skill and the knowledge to use it is a skill.
Using a macro to create a cast sequence to counter a specific situation is also knowledge and skill.

The one brush paints all is an idiotic approach.

 

[Werfetter]

Suppose its the old argument about enhancements. Think of steroids in sport, this is similar. I think when it comes to competitions they try to level the playing field as much as possible so true skill stands out, like handicapping in horse races or golf. One of the reasons I like the low graphics fps because regardless of what machine you run, you generally all have a decent framerate/response etc.

To elaborate ony our point. There are many examples of any enhancements for professional athletes. Why not allow archers to fasten their bow to a stand and having a mechanical arm pull the arrow back to the exact point ensuring the perfect shot every time? Sure the skill to build the rig is incredible and well done but it removes the skill that is intended to be used and showcased.

I agree that the skills to create and use the macros are impressive but at the end of the day where do you draw the line. Unfortunately you have to draw the line somewhere so banning it outright is the right call. If you want to watch free for all dota go watch the AI matches

 

[Kosmik]

To elaborate ony our point. There are many examples of any enhancements for professional athletes. Why not allow archers to fasten their bow to a stand and having a mechanical arm pull the arrow back to the exact point ensuring the perfect shot every time? Sure the skill to build the rig is incredible and well done but it removes the skill that is intended to be used and showcased.

I agree that the skills to create and use the macros are impressive but at the end of the day where do you draw the line. Unfortunately you have to draw the line somewhere so banning it outright is the right call. If you want to watch free for all dota go watch the AI matches

Not to mention that they would probably have some 3rd party create a macro and the entire team shares it so how much is genuine INDIVIDUAL skill or even team skill over what can be purchased.

 

[Archer]

Using a macro to create a cast sequence to counter a specific situation is also knowledge and skill.

lolwut

The dexterity component of the gameplay is just as much a skill as anything else. Using macros however eliminates the need for any dexterity (beyond making the first click).

Just ask yourself one simple question - what requires more skill: Clicking a button (after you've completed the insanely simple task of creating a macro), or clicking several buttons in the correct sequence and timing? I mean really, at any vaguely decent level of play everyone is going to know the counters, because it's all public knowledge anyway.

 

[Archer]

Not to mention that they would probably have some 3rd party create a macro and the entire team shares it so how much is genuine INDIVIDUAL skill or even team skill over what can be purchased.

Clicking one button to run my macros that I downloaded free from reddit = l33t skillz

 

[DMNknight]

lolwut

The dexterity component of the gameplay is just as much a skill as anything else. Using macros however eliminates the need for any dexterity (beyond making the first click).

Just ask yourself one simple question - what requires more skill: Clicking a button (after you've completed the insanely simple task of creating a macro), or clicking several buttons in the correct sequence and timing? I mean really, at any vaguely decent level of play everyone is going to know the counters, because it's all public knowledge anyway.

I would say that analysis, situational awareness and accuracy are just as much part of the skillset as manual dexterity is.
World of Warcraft implements the cast-sequence macro very successfully because they recognised the need for it, so it is a legtimate skillset.
The mentioned macro to micro manage and summon to the exact same point & time is very much cheating as it is not within the skillset of a human right now (I am betting someone exemplary is going to come alogn and get that as close as perfect as to be indistinguishable)
Anyways, like I said, painting everything with the same brush is a short sighted approach. Knowledge, strategy and coding should be as much part of the skillset as reactions and manual dexterity.

 

[DMNknight]

Clicking one button to run my macros that I downloaded free from reddit = l33t skillz

Macro skills are not that hard to aquire... it's just scripting on a very basic level. Most plebs can do it.

 

[saor]

Your argument is along the lines of banning access to Sun Tzu's art of war because the knowledge imparted to one player can give them an edge in combat.

It's more analogous to banning calculators in a math test.
Or banning macros in a Street Fighter / Mortal Kombat tournament.

 

[Archer]

I would say that analysis, situational awareness and accuracy are just as much part of the skillset as manual dexterity is.
World of Warcraft implements the cast-sequence macro very successfully because they recognised the need for it, so it is a legtimate skillset.
The mentioned macro to micro manage and summon to the exact same point & time is very much cheating as it is not within the skillset of a human right now (I am betting someone exemplary is going to come alogn and get that as close as perfect as to be indistinguishable)
Anyways, like I said, painting everything with the same brush is a short sighted approach. Knowledge, strategy and coding should be as much part of the skillset as reactions and manual dexterity.

Lets try again, what requires MORE skill - applying analysis, situational awareness and accuracy and then clicking one button, or applying analysis, situational awareness and accuracy and then clicking multiple buttons in the correct sequence and timing?

Comparing it to WoW where there is essentially no competition is silly. Oh look, they "allowed" item dupes in D2, therefore it is a legitimate skillset. I mean really.

Macro skills are not that hard to aquire... it's just scripting on a very basic level. Most plebs can do it.

So what you even on about then? :erm: So a "skillset" that most plebs can do is something you want in competitive gameplay? This is getting very silly indeed
You also failed the sarcasm test apparently

 

[Cray]

So was the mouse itself illegal or was it the fact that he used the Macro ability of said mouse?

https://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/47325-thunder-predator-disqualified-from-ti-qualifiers

However, some viewers took to the combat logs and discovered something troubling. Evidence suggested that Juan ‘Atun’ Ochoa was using macros to gain a competitive advantage on Huskar and Meepo. Macros allow for easy armlet toggling on Huskar as well as seamless Poof use on Meepo. Upon discovery of the evidence, a reddit thread was created to illustrate the abuse which is clearly already outlined and considered a cheat by Dota 2 standards.

Following a review of the evidence, it was determined that macros were, in fact, being used and disqualification from the qualifiers would be an appropriate punishment. Evidence of the script use for Armlet was provided.

 

[Messugga]

and secondly, Shaka Zulu identified a need for a short spear in the "traditional" warfare mindset, something that could both be thrown and push aside a shield in close range to defeat his enemy armed with a much longer weapon.

I think crying foul in combat when someone out thinks you is rather pointless. If creating a macro, recognising that you need a macro and getting someone to make it for you and then being able to use it when the circumstance is right for it, that's still skill.

If people want eSports to be taken seriously, you have to make sure that things run on a somewhat even playing field. By your logic, using flippers in swimming is being better prepared and thus should be allowed.

 

[Fulcrum29]

So was the mouse itself illegal or was it the fact that he used the Macro ability of said mouse?

https://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/47325-thunder-predator-disqualified-from-ti-qualifiers

Software, third-party assistance. The same applies to any onboard programmable firmware.

 

[Cray]

and secondly, Shaka Zulu identified a need for a short spear in the "traditional" warfare mindset, something that could both be thrown and push aside a shield in close range to defeat his enemy armed with a much longer weapon.

Comparing battlefield innovations to trying to offer a level playing field in an e-sport.....? :crylaugh:

I think crying foul in combat when someone out thinks you is rather pointless. If creating a macro, recognising that you need a macro and getting someone to make it for you and then being able to use it when the circumstance is right for it, that's still skill.

You know it's takes a lot of skill to learn jiu-jitsu, takes a lot of time to get a black belt - lets allow allow rugby players to choke each other out on the rugby field, after all, it's all about skill right?

 

[DMNknight]

Lets try again, what requires MORE skill - applying analysis, situational awareness and accuracy and then clicking one button, or applying analysis, situational awareness and accuracy and then clicking multiple buttons in the correct sequence and timing?

Comparing it to WoW where there is essentially no competition is silly. Oh look, they "allowed" item dupes in D2, therefore it is a legitimate skillset. I mean really.



So what you even on about then? :erm: So a "skillset" that most plebs can do is something you want in competitive gameplay? This is getting very silly indeed
You also failed the sarcasm test apparently

I can't take your viewpoint seriously at all. You're somehow confusing item duping in Diablo 2 with World of Warcraft Arena which is couple of hundred thousand dollar global esports. Have a look.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/esports

 

[DMNknight]

If people want eSports to be taken seriously, you have to make sure that things run on a somewhat even playing field. By your logic, using flippers in swimming is being better prepared and thus should be allowed.

Scripting a macro is available to all players, especially if well supported within the game and well implemented.
Getting a macro-able mouse is available to all players.
However, an extra button on the mouse to switch DPI on the fly is allowed, because it's built into the mouse...

Flippers are not allowed because they're external assistance, but look at all the tech that goes into those swimming suits of theirs.

 

[DMNknight]

Comparing battlefield innovations to trying to offer a level playing field in an e-sport.....? :crylaugh:



You know it's takes a lot of skill to learn jiu-jitsu, takes a lot of time to get a black belt - lets allow allow rugby players to choke each other out on the rugby field, after all, it's all about skill right?

Esport is about virtual combat. The Art of War applies to that field of combat as much as it does in the real world, it only costs virtual lives and not real ones.

If you want Esports to grow to a phenomenon, then short sighted rules on macro's or poorly implemented game macro's are going to see someone rise to the top who does all those things.
Who's to say that the 5th spot on your team isn't supposed to be the hacker/coder type?

All it will take, is a game where it's not just about manual dexterity, but mental agility and absolute resource management and the refinement of that process to the nth degree.
Go have a look at Six-Sigma, Devops and ITIL IT processes to see what I mean.

Writing macros to free up brain resources to attend to other tasks more efficiently is smart, not cheating.

Once again though... macros that enhance the player, not give them abilities beyond human capabilities. Major difference which most of you seem to be missing.

 

[Swa]

Fundamentally incorrect. Macro's are not bots. Bots involve a certain amount of automation which are not intended by the developer, such as choices being made on behalf of the user.
Macro's on the other hand are a little iffy as they can mimic user behaviour (i.e. no difference other than 1 click vs 3) to creating something with timings that are not possible by humans.
However, all macro's are very much created for a situation and applicable to a very narrow scope. I would say that a player who has good macro's is more prepared than a player without and is therefore more skillful.

Your argument is along the lines of banning access to Sun Tzu's art of war because the knowledge imparted to one player can give them an edge in combat.

Macro's and the ability to write them, alongside devices that support them equates to an equal opportunity playing field.
Don't see the problem unless the macro is doing something a player cannot do.

Exactly the way I see it. Knowing when a sequence is going to arise and using it at that moment is a skill in itself. Besides I don't see how it can be policed. Are they now going to check that nobody is using a keyboard program as well? Banning mouse macros will just create a more uneven playing field.

To elaborate ony our point. There are many examples of any enhancements for professional athletes. Why not allow archers to fasten their bow to a stand and having a mechanical arm pull the arrow back to the exact point ensuring the perfect shot every time? Sure the skill to build the rig is incredible and well done but it removes the skill that is intended to be used and showcased.

I agree that the skills to create and use the macros are impressive but at the end of the day where do you draw the line. Unfortunately you have to draw the line somewhere so banning it outright is the right call. If you want to watch free for all dota go watch the AI matches

What you are describing is the same as using a bot to analyse a situation and then perform an action. Not what a macro is as it's all fixed sequences without any automatic decision making. More correct would be an archer having a special shock absorber design so the arrow doesn't move on release.

Scripting a macro is available to all players, especially if well supported within the game and well implemented.
Getting a macro-able mouse is available to all players.
However, an extra button on the mouse to switch DPI on the fly is allowed, because it's built into the mouse...

Flippers are not allowed because they're external assistance, but look at all the tech that goes into those swimming suits of theirs.

Maybe we should just ban swimming suits then, no extra assistance. It's obvious there's always going to be enhancements some people are going to be against. It's just a matter of degree here. If they want playing where it's a purely a matter of knowing and being able to press buttons at the correct time then maybe they should only pick games where there are no fixed sequences and macros offer no advantage.