E-toll prosecution process begins: report

OK...I'd rather pay the lawyers triple the amount I "owe" SANRAL instead.
 
FireTelkom said:
I had perhaps thought longer about that than many people on this forum! I see a lot of arguments of the non-paying mafia that is very close to mental masturbation - it may make them feel good but at the end you achieve nothing lasting....

The non-paying arguments also remind me of the groups that decided not to participate at Codesa because the whites did not decide but then crawled baxk to partipate in the elections like Constant Viljoen or the way that Buthelezi initially did not want to get rid of his Bantustan but 6 days before 27 April 1994 decided to participate.

I remain with my views that the only fair system is a user pay principke based on usage. The method of collection of the tolls can either be through toll gates or the much more convenient system of electronic tolling to prevent the built up a toll booths.
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At the end of the day, if they are not able to get the funds in, this will be the solution. Driving will be a nightmare, but at least the criminals will get money from road users right away - robbing everyone right at the gate...
 
Hamster said:
OK...I'd rather pay the lawyers triple the amount I "owe" SANRAL instead.
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Despite the outcome of the case, guilty, not guilty - that will in any event be what you will be paying. If guilty, the amount you'll need to pay will just double over and above attorney fees.
 
House said:
At the end of the day, if they are not able to get the funds in, this will be the solution. Driving will be a nightmare, but at least the criminals will get money from road users right away - robbing everyone right at the gate...
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It's also an inconvenience to have another account to pay. Fuel levy and most complaints would go away (still a *** solution but hey, a lot of us wouldn't have cared that much)
 
House said:
Despite the outcome of the case, guilty, not guilty - that will in any event be what you will be paying. If guilty, the amount you'll need to pay will just double over and above attorney fees.
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I'll risk it. If we go by these figures I'll be about R10k out of pocket. Easy to be brave when the numbers are relatively "low" :p
 
FireTelkom said:
I had perhaps thought longer about that than many people on this forum! I see a lot of arguments of the non-paying mafia that is very close to mental masturbation - it may make them feel good but at the end you achieve nothing lasting....

The non-paying arguments also remind me of the groups that decided not to participate at Codesa because the whites did not decide but then crawled baxk to partipate in the elections like Constant Viljoen or the way that Buthelezi initially did not want to get rid of his Bantustan but 6 days before 27 April 1994 decided to participate.

I remain with my views that the only fair system is a user pay principke based on usage. The method of collection of the tolls can either be through toll gates or the much more convenient system of electronic tolling to prevent the built up a toll booths.
Click to expand...

So do you agree the current system is unfair since its not based in the user pay principle, based on usage, but based on unluckily going under a gantries that are 10km apart points?

I can drive large sections without paying a cent (since I don't pass under a gantry) and I do daily (brakfontein interchange from N14 to Samrand on N1 south ~8km and Buccleuch interchange from M1 to New Road on N1 north ~8km).

Maybe if it was at every entry and exit point of the system, you argument would hold validity but it isn't, so do you concede your argument holds no validity as per how the system is currently implemented?

Come one, answer my questions (as posed earlier as well), I don't want to hear about other people not paying and whatever else that seems to be diverting your attention.
 
Garyvdh said:
They will never get to the rest. It is a sheer impossibility. Therefore they can only choose some. Therefore unequal treatment before the law.
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Lets say for example that they go after the 40 people/companies that owe the most. If they get successful prosecutions do really think that person in position 41 is going to wait until it's his turn? He will head straight in to pay. The majority of the people who owe money will be standing in queues to pay. I have always said that it's an uneven tax and easy to prosecute. Everyone will get their turn if they wait because the vast majority will pay on the first successful prosecution.

One other thing that avoids the unequal is the way the fines work. Each time you drive through a toll gate and don't pay, it's a different offense. How can it be uneven prosecution to go after the people that have committed the most offenses first?
 
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On the news last might they spoke to a woman who already has R80K in bills. How they going to pay that?
 
FireTelkom said:
I had perhaps thought longer about that than many people on this forum!
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Come one, have you thought some more so we can debate my issues raised in the other post or do you concede even how you view the situation of user pays, the current implementation if too flawed?

An example of if the Gautrain operated like the e-tolls system on GFIP roads. You can travel between Pretoria and Centurion station for free, while if you travel between Centurion and Midrand station you have to pay as if you drove all the way from Pretoria but you only got on a Centurion. Does that sound "air?
 
supersunbird said:
So do you agree the current system is unfair since its not based in the user pay principle, based on usage, but based on unluckily going under a gantries that are 10km apart points?

I can drive large sections without paying a cent (since I don't pass under a gantry) and I do daily (brakfontein interchange from N14 to Samrand on N1 south ~8km and Buccleuch interchange from M1 to New Road on N1 north ~8km).

Maybe if it was at every entry and exit point of the system, you argument would hold validity but it isn't, so do you concede your argument holds no validity as per how the system is currently implemented?

Come one, answer my questions (as posed earlier as well), I don't want to hear about other people not paying and whatever else that seems to be diverting your attention.
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I may seem unfair to you but for every section you mentioned you will see a gantry for the traffic in the opposite direction. So on the way south from Brakfontein to Samrand you do not pass under a gantry but when going in the opposite direction you will. The premise for the location of the gantries was with the assumption that more than 99% of all people will use both sections of the same portion of freeways and the number of times going south and north will balance out, hence the decision to reduce the cost of collection by halving the number of gantries that were built and have to be maintained.

User payments for road infrastructure is very often not supported by the public initially as you can see from debates in the UK with congestion charging for London that recently went up from GBP10 to GBP13 per day, the restrictions in Jakarta where only multi-occupancy vehicles with more than 3 people inside are allowed to proceed on many freeways or the system in Singapore where you're right to own a vehicle will cost more than R1.5million every 5 years. (Just as a matter of interest if you enter the congestion charge zone in London you must pay on the same day as the charge is increased to about GBP 100 if you pay the next week!)

Countries that experimented with alternative funding models like dedicated transport fuel levies (which we do not have) and vehicle license fees (ours are exceptionally low compared to the developing world and developed world) are finding ever increasing gaps in money recovered because of the actions of consumers. The Netherlands is an excellent example where the price of Petrol is now R27 per litre (Euro 1.835) and the road tax (license fee) for a typical Audi A4 2.0 Petrol is more or less R1550 per month! If you choose a diesel vehicle in Holland the price for diesel is R22 per litre but you're monthly road tax for a Audi A4 2.0 Tdi will be about R2850 per month.

The Dutch are now the country in Europe buying the biggest number of Hybrid cars and electric cars due to the fact that the road taxes will be nearly R650 per month for the BMW i3 and you can reduce you're petrol usage a lot. This however created a situation where the price of fuel is increasing every year much more than the neighbouring countries and as such the Dutch are even considering introducing user pay principles. They are looking at two options and the first is E-Gantries and the second is to fit every vehicle with an electronic device where you will pay for every travelled on even the road in front of you're house.

The question of public transport comes up very often and yet we are a country where more than 70% of the population is totally dependant on public transport. The current investments in Public transport is also assisting the increase that figure even more. Just think if all the people using the Gautrain were also one-one in a car like 90% of all vehicles on the N1 - it would have been gridlock for at least 3 hours per day per direction. As the public transport is subsidised we must remember that the majority of roads are also still totally subsidised and the Gauteng E-Freeways partially.

Perhaps I am looking at this from a transport planning and management perspective and not just from an emotional "not in my backyard" perspective. We must create the believe that it is the individuals choosing to use the E-roads and not forced on any-one. It will most probably also change our buying decision on where we stay and where we work. Perhaps the future of the Sleep Cities like Centurion, Soweto, Alberton and even Heidelberg where the people sleep in those cities and commute long distances at high cost is the real problem in our country. We are the country and Gauteng the area in the country with the longest commuting distances in the world.
 
FireTelkom said:
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why compare UK etc with us? We are 3rd world country... can't compare us to them.

And if government stops spending petrol tax money , and stop subsiding taxis, there would be enough money for roads. We pay tax on petrol, and when you renew you car license etc.. so where is ALL that money?

Our government is corrupt, and now we have to pay for their fck ups. Yes car are more fuel efficient, but there are more cars on the road too and the tax on fuel is higher each year..
 
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Meanwhile, at a Microsoft Outlook near you

Indebtedness for driving on toll road.jpg

Scammers have started ca$hing in on this e-toll confusion. The link in the e-mail led to a download of a zipped exe file with an MS word icon to disguise it's true nature
 
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kianm said:
Meanwhile, at a Microsoft Outlook near you

View attachment 132611

Scammers have started ca$hing in on this e-toll confusion. The link in the e-mail led to a download of a zipped exe file with an MS word icon to disguise it's true nature
Click to expand...

Forward it to SCAMRAL. Maybe some knob will be stupid enough to click on it
 
SpiderMonkey said:
Lets say for example that they go after the 40 people/companies that owe the most. If they get successful prosecutions do really think that person in position 41 is going to wait until it's his turn? He will head straight in to pay. The majority of the people who owe money will be standing in queues to pay. I have always said that it's an uneven tax and easy to prosecute. Everyone will get their turn if they wait because the vast majority will pay on the first successful prosecution.

One other thing that avoids the unequal is the way the fines work. Each time you drive through a toll gate and don't pay, it's a different offense. How can it be uneven prosecution to go after the people that have committed the most offenses first?
Click to expand...

I don’t think that they will be successful.
 
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