Early e-tag deductions spark fury

B.O.F.H. said:
Ok.. I also think the 25m is an excesive figure..

But lets assume a conservative number (200000) vehicles travel between PTA and JHB (Gilooly's) each day... That is 13 Gantries... so "13" transactions per one way trip... so effectively 26 "transactions" per work day for those 200000 vehicles which ends up being 5200000 "transactions" each day..
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And thats not including to Randburg, or the East rand. You could easily triple or quadruple that number, so 25 Mil may be high but is not far off.
 
Fudzy said:
*spits out coffee* 25 Million transactions a day! Where do you get that figure from? There are only about 7 million cars in the whole country.
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No, not really. If you have to drive from Pretoria to Johannesburg, you will pass approx. 7-8 points where it will be transacted. If you return, it is again 7-8 points. Then there are trucks, people driving on holiday, etc. driving through. Couriers, people driving to meeting, etc. Over a 24 hour period, it can be UP TO 25 Million transactions. The source was stated on the news on some radio station, but after also choking on my coffee, it made sense.
 
Fudzy said:
Yeah like a more realistic figure, is the charge the same on each point? It's not like the stretch from Dbn to Jhb where you pay R5 at one toll road and R200 at another.
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No, the charge is supposed to be per km. I have no idea how they will work it out tho.
 
creeper said:
No, not really. If you have to drive from Pretoria to Johannesburg, you will pass approx. 7-8 points where it will be transacted. If you return, it is again 7-8 points. Then there are trucks, people driving on holiday, etc. driving through. Couriers, people driving to meeting, etc. Over a 24 hour period, it can be UP TO 25 Million transactions. The source was stated on the news on some radio station, but after also choking on my coffee, it made sense.
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If you take the worst case example then of having to go through all the points returned that that that brings the transaction figures down to around 3.5m, that's half of all the cars in the country road driving from Pretoria to Johannesburg going through every scanner. If this figure isn't off, no wonder the road is always so chaotic and congested.
 
Madman88 said:
No, the charge is supposed to be per km. I have no idea how they will work it out tho.
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There are cameras on those gantrys hey? It will probably work like the average speed prosecution cameras. Snap your license plate at Point 1 then again at point 2 then charge you Rx per KM between those two gantrys.
 
Fudzy said:
Does those apply locally?
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The road traffic act is just that...an act.
An act is not "the law". It is given "the colour of law" when enacted in parlaiment.
It needs YOUR CONSENT and you are giving it by saying nothing.

I plan to write a detailed post about this soon. There are people in ZA that doesn't pay
any toll fees because they have followed a "legal procedure" whereby they have withdrawn their consent to stand under these Acts.

You common law right to travel is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.
 
And the stupid thing is that if you get 4 more people to ride with you and you split the money for petrol and the toll between the 5 of you in your car, it is illegal.
 
Fudzy said:
If you take the worst case example then of having to go through all the points returned that that that brings the transaction figures down to around 3.5m, that's half of all the cars in the country road driving from Pretoria to Johannesburg going through every scanner. If this figure isn't off, no wonder the road is always so chaotic and congested.
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Dude, no offence but you're missing the fact that EACH gantry is a transaction.... not the entire trip.
 
Fudzy said:
*spits out coffee* 25 Million transactions a day! Where do you get that figure from? There are only about 7 million cars in the whole country.
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I would assume EVERY time a car goes through A toll gate it registers as one transaction, THEN the car passes through the second toll gate, that registers as the SECOND transaction considering there will be 42 toll gantries 1 car COULD register 42 transactions then the consideration that figures were calculated on a possible 15,000 cars using the tolled roads daily which excludes taxis, trucks, motorcycles etc that would get to an approximate 1,260,000 transactions POSSIBLE not definite. And then (consider corruption how many may be double billed LOL) should they return home it would then equate to 2,520,000.

Also i believe eNatis had +/- 10mil cars registered at the end of 2009. I can't see where 25 mil transactions come from but i recon they will make a killing!!!
 
Fudzy said:
If you take the worst case example then of having to go through all the points returned that that that brings the transaction figures down to around 3.5m, that's half of all the cars in the country road driving from Pretoria to Johannesburg going through every scanner. If this figure isn't off, no wonder the road is always so chaotic and congested.
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There are also grantries on the R21, R24, N1 south pass Soweto, N3 and N12. So N1 between Joburg and Pretoria is only one part of the network. So, yes, I won't argue that it is a bit high, but it isn't unrealistic.
 
Madman88 said:
Untill they build gantries on the M1 too. Its in the plans.
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Like i said, there are "back roads" which in many cases are really not "back roads" as such and are well maintained roads but are NOT highway. There are MANY what if what if what if but the fact is these main highways are not the only good roads. In fact some secondary roads are in a better condition and not that different in terms of distance and fuel consumption.
 
creeper said:
They call it civil disobedience, I call it my constitution right of freedom of movement and right to work (and get to it).

There is a legal grey areas on the presecution of offenders as there are currently three legal opions, NPA, SANRAL and NGOs fighting against the tolls. Therefore, unless there is a case and therefore case law is created, there is no real agreement on the prosecution.

Then we take it on step further. If the estimated 25Million transactions will occur daily on the toll roads, and 10% of them don't pay, it will be impossible to send out infringements to all of them as the cost will outway the benefit. Then 10% of those people can take it to court, which leads to more money to be spend by SANRAL. So, at the end, the cost will outway the benefit.

The admin fees that are suddenly appearing is again an incredible lack of transparency towards the whole thing.

But what is the cherry on the cake is the fact that taxis and buses won't pay toll fees (according to the last reports). So, it creates a perception that it is target at the working (tax paying) middle to upper class that is already paying between 60-70% tax (personal tax + VAT + petrol + capital gains + etc.).

The disconent towards the eTolls is the beginning of the tipping point of where South Africans "eat-the-crap" threshold. This is why we are all fighting back by being disobedient towards the eTolls. Then the argument comes in that it will create a precedent for anything that government wants to implement, but it can also be argued that if government is efficient and effective, it will not occur. The concept of bulldozing laws and enforcing it upon the citizens are ending.

At the end, people are getting tired of putting money into a system that is not delivering at any level.
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Your argument about costs versus benefit is only valid when the company in question will suffer negative consequences from higher ratios of cost, ultimately leading to closure from bankruptcy. Considering we are talking about a parastatal, cost can be somewhat considered to be quasi factor at best when funding can easily be called upon from the treasury to shore up any deficits in the account. Yes, in other countries going over budget would produce stringent enquiries, penalties, investigation and displinary action, etc, etc, but for our current political environment such steps don't generate the outcome we hope for, the many various scandals shows this (add to this the success of the information bill and we got an opaque system for accountability). Financially speaking, sending out infringements wouldn't be impossible, it would just hurt the national budget as more money has to be poured into funding such an exercise. Effectively, the people who infringe are paying (via other taxes) for infringements to be sent out to them with their own money, while those who comply by paying the toll are simply funding the states bank account, with a percentage siphoned off for that next trip to Paris for some Minister or other civil servant.

Just my observation.
 
Skywalker42 said:
The road traffic act is just that...an act.
An act is not "the law". It is given "the colour of law" when enacted in parlaiment.
It needs YOUR CONSENT and you are giving it by saying nothing.

I plan to write a detailed post about this soon. There are people in ZA that doesn't pay
any toll fees because they have followed a "legal procedure" whereby they have withdrawn their consent to stand under these Acts.

You common law right to travel is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.
Click to expand...

I would like to hear more on how to go about this because i would definitely pursue this BIG time!
 
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