Emigration....... Are people serious

[OrbitalDawn]

I don't think it's nonsense, but this late in the game it's not possible for most of us, from an adaptability mindset perspective.

Reason being that somewhere like Denmark for instance is nanny-stated to death and the people are almost assimilated to that mindset and therefore they are very happy with less. They are told how to live their lives and it's simple and therefore they are happy. Less is more and all that, the less they need to think about it the better.

However as someone who grew up in the free world I suspect I'll have a very hard time adapting to that...and contrary to what you might think many people in Denmark are struggling as well.

How are they nanny-stated to death?

And note in the index they take into account freedom to make life choices (although this would naturally have a lot to do with perceptions growing up), and those countries are also at the top of the economic freedom index.

It's funny really because whoever said earlier that they would rather live somewhere that expects a higher quality of them and people themselves, because Denmark has this mindset/doctrine which I now sadly can't remember the word for which basically says DON'T BE EXCEPTIONAL and if you try to do anything out of the norm you get ridiculed and shut down.

****

I remembered now it's called Jante.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

The ten rules state:

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.

I WILL NOT be able to live with a populous that has that mindset.

That's pretty fascinating, but can't say it bears any resemblance to me or anyone I know's experience with these countries and people.

Guess who tops the list for most innovative countries? Denmark, with Sweden in 2nd place.

That doesn't strike me as a country that's hostile to standing out, and achieving more than those around you etc.

But my comment was more about your lamenting people chasing their "fortune" as opposed to happiness. In bigger cities, especially financially-driven ones like London and New York that might be the case, but there is much to more going on in the first world than money-chasing.

On that note - would you consider JHB representative of what South Africa can offer someone? Rhetorical question, obviously, since you've made it clear it isn't.

There are other great reasons to live in some of those countries though, such as the 2 years of maternity/paternity leave that you get to share when having a baby and is fully paid for.


Interesting to note countries like Mexico and Brazil on that list which are very similar to our own and very third world...yet happy. Bringing me back to the point that 1st World doesn't automatically conclude happiness.


The Netherlands are also high on that list. I've been there and although it's okay for a holiday I wouldn't want to live in a country that is completely unnatural and fabricated. Also the people really aren't very friendly at all to outsiders.

I've worked with people from pretty much every one of those countries except Iceland, Belguim and Luxembourg and it again bring me back to the feeling that Africans (and other third world countries) are nicer, happier people to deal with and preferably live with.


As an African I think I would have a very very hard time adapting to Scandinavian countries for both the doctrine, language and cold.

On the list of happiest places I would be interested in most New Zealand, Costa Rica, Mexico, Brazil and possibly maybe Australia.

I'm also very apprehensive about language barriers. I think I'd personally struggle with it quite a bit, so Commonwealth nations are my first choice at the moment.

Are you very resistant to change in general (like biometrics)? To what extent do you think this influences your view on the matter.

I tend to get comfortable and will then be quite hesitant to move out of that comfort zone, but have found that it hinders me from going after some things I want to do in life, so I'm trying to adapt a bit.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I'm currently looking into a position at one of the Big 4 in Rotterdam. I was not offered this position but was informed of it by a friend. I am a qualified CA but even then I am finding it difficult to find work. I have completed my articles some time ago but not at the Big 4. If I went to the Big 4 it would've been a complete cakewalk to get a position at any branch.

Do you need to go through an accreditation process to work there? Always wonder about how much more difficult that makes things for lawyers, engineers, doctors and the like.

Acquaintance of mine, also a CA, is moving to Bermuda in a month's time, thanks to one of the big 4.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Do you need to go through an accreditation process to work there? Always wonder about how much more difficult that makes things for lawyers, engineers, doctors and the like.

Acquaintance of mine, also a CA, is moving to Bermuda in a month's time, thanks to one of the big 4.

Is his name Christian by any chance?

No accreditation process is necessary. I'm registered with a professional body. I assume if I want to be a tax practitioner I'll need to do a bridging course, but financial services don't differ much - There is an international standard for financial reporting.

 

[cguy]

If I get the position I will be taking a huge step back in terms of job position title, yet I'll be earning approximately 20% more.

I did the same thing. A lot of firms just don't get that a 20% increase from one country to another is not necessarily a promotion/increase (it does work in your favour if you go back though ). A couple of years later I was at the same relative level again (but the baseline was far higher than in SA) - hopefully the same happens with you.

Yes I will be leaving my friends and my family behind, but to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs.

To me this is one of the toughest parts (especially given the state of the internet and "skype"-like features back in early 2000s). Today, between Skype and my income, I keep in contact easily now, fly up family regularly (approx. once a year), and also do destination holidays, etc. (usually flying to London, and flying my family up as well for a joint holiday). I would rather have them nearby, which may happen eventually - a door that would only be open to them by me being a foreign citizen.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Is his name Christian by any chance?

No accreditation process is necessary. I'm registered with a professional body. I assume if I want to be a tax practitioner I'll need to do a bridging course, but financial services don't differ much - There is an international standard for financial reporting.

Yep, that's his name. Guess you know him?

Ah, okay. That's cool. Will make the process easier.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Yep, that's his name. Guess you know him?

Ah, okay. That's cool. Will make the process easier.

I do know him yes. His wife goes to my gym and I see him there occasionally.

 

[zippy]

Research it carefully. There is a reason why the arab airports are full of literally thousands of permanently abandoned cars at the airport.. Plus they have their own version of AA - a concept that I've had enough for for two lifetimes.

There is also a reason they pay so high. Very few people are willing to work in those countries.

 

[HavocXphere]

...

Thanks for the Law of Jante thing - interesting. The thing is, it does actually work if the collective mindset is peaceful & cohesive - you need that to achieve a society that operates on the honour system & frankly life is easier.

I WILL NOT be able to live with a populous that has that mindset.

I'm not able to live with a populous where the mindset makes them regularly burn down infrastructure (and occasionally torch some kids too). I'll never be able to find common ground with such people no matter how much I embrace diversity. There are many reasons for me leaving, but that is the one that makes me certain its a permanent move.

As an African I think I would have a very very hard time adapting to Scandinavian countries for both the doctrine, language and cold.

Yeah - toying with the thought of a stint in a Scandinavian country, but the language barrier has me worried. Doctrine & cold - shouldn't be an issue.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Thanks for the Law of Jante thing - interesting. The thing is, it does actually work if the collective mindset is peaceful & cohesive - you need that to achieve a society that operates on the honour system & frankly life is easier.


I'm not able to live with a populous where the mindset makes them regularly burn down infrastructure (and occasionally torch some kids too). I'll never be able to find common ground with such people no matter how much I embrace diversity. There are many reasons for me leaving, but that is the one that makes me certain its a permanent move.


Yeah - toying with the thought of a stint in a Scandinavian country, but the language barrier has me worried. Doctrine & cold - shouldn't be an issue.

Yeah you make fair points and I agree overall even if you don't like that kind of mindset like you say it's simpler/easier/better than the hard road we face locally.

But it's also a little bit unfair to judge everything on the lowest common denominator. There are many "champions" among the people here which for instance wouldn't be possible in that Jante mindset.

We also have many freedoms we take for granted. Some people would like them taken away and live in the nanny state and some still want that freedom.

Like I said, for now I'm still content. I don't feel the "push" that others do.

 

[HavocXphere]

There is also a reason they pay so high. Very few people are willing to work in those countries.

Yeah worked with a couple of people from that region - they're on a very different wavelength then me somehow though I can't quite place what exactly is causing that disconnect.

 

[Spizz]

There is also a reason they pay so high. Very few people are willing to work in those countries.

Are you talking about UAE? Something like 87% of the population are foreigners including an estimated 50-100,000 South Africans.

 

[HavocXphere]

But it's also a little bit unfair to judge everything on the lowest common denominator.

I did pick a rather extreme example & certainly am not deluded enough to think thats the norm. Nor was I attempting to contrast it with the previous paragraph. Its mostly to illustrate that there is something in SA that I cannot co-exist with, so either I become Batman & rid Gotham of that or I need to find another place.

We also have many freedoms we take for granted.

I must admit I can't think of anything I could do SA side that I can't do in the UK. They let me buy beer on a sunday night and get a cellphone without RICA.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Yeah you make fair points and I agree overall even if you don't like that kind of mindset like you say it's simpler/easier/better than the hard road we face locally.

But it's also a little bit unfair to judge everything on the lowest common denominator. There are many "champions" among the people here which for instance wouldn't be possible in that Jante mindset.

We also have many freedoms we take for granted. Some people would like them taken away and live in the nanny state and some still want that freedom.

Like I said, for now I'm still content. I don't feel the "push" that others do.

Mind responding to my post, specifically regarding the nanny-state claim? It gets parroted all the time and no one ever explains what they're talking about.

 

[icyrus]

Mind respond to my post, specifically regarding the nanny-state claim? It gets parroted all the time and no one ever explains what they're talking about.

Generally they mean bribing cops, speeding and ignoring building regulations and municipal bylaws.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Mind responding to my post, specifically regarding the nanny-state claim? It gets parroted all the time and no one ever explains what they're talking about.

My apologies, must have missed it.

Obviously I base this opinion not on my own personal experience but either on that of friends from overseas that have moved here or ones that have gone there.

Speed limits are always a common one to come up, and yes also that breaking them isn't a major concern because there aren't cameras around every corner etc.

Other road related things are the various taxes relating to different cars and their age or capacity etc. My one mate has an old Cobra and he says there is no way in hell he could afford to drive that or at all in the UK because of regulations, taxes and such.

On the flip side a motorcyclist friend who moved to Australia isn't so bothered by the speed limits and is quite happily with the number of race tracks they have their to compensate for it. His issue is around the regulations for lane splitting again, this is an even bigger problem in the US.

Then there is the whole over the top political correctness issue. I work for an American company and therefore have to go through annual ethics training. All it really is, is how to be as insufferably PC as possible so that you don't offend someone five floors down who don't know you from a bar of soap but might be offended by your background image. Our normal daily office life in SA would see us all fired, working in the office there long term would have me commuting suicide.

Then there is the question of property space and value for money. All my foreign friends are VERY happy with their lifestyles here. They get massive houses for the same money and eat like kings, granted a number of them still get paid in dollars and pounds of course, but even those that don't prefer the lifestyle.

And I always ask myself how bad can it really be if so many foreigners are happy to come life here? Granted they can flee at the drop of a hat of they wanted.

Also while the likes of Naspers and other big enterprises keep pushing profits it seems like a good bet to be. When they start pulling out I'll start hearing alarm bells.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

My apologies, must have missed it.

Obviously I base this opinion not on my own personal experience but either on that of friends from overseas that have moved here or ones that have gone there.

Speed limits are always a common one to come up, and yes also that breaking them isn't a major concern because there aren't cameras around every corner etc.

Other road related things are the various taxes relating to different cars and their age or capacity etc. My one mate has an old Cobra and he says there is no way in hell he could afford to drive that or at all in the UK because of regulations, taxes and such.

On the flip side a motorcyclist friend who moved to Australia isn't so bothered by the speed limits and is quite happily with the number of race tracks they have their to compensate for it. His issue is around the regulations for lane splitting again, this is an even bigger problem in the US.

Then there is the whole over the top political correctness issue. I work for an American company and therefore have to go through annual ethics training. All it really is, is how to be as insufferably PC as possible so that you don't offend someone five floors down who don't know you from a bar of soap but might be offended by your background image. Our normal daily office life in SA would see us all fired, working in the office there long term would have me commuting suicide.

Cars made before 1975 (i.e. Cobras) are exempt from vehicle tax.

Lane splitting is legal in New South Wales and Queensland in Aus.

Is this stuff honestly what you consider being "nanny-stated to death"? Compared with the crap we have to put up with in SA? :erm:

Guess I'll continue to not take this "concern" seriously then.

Then there is the question of property space and value for money. All my foreign friends are VERY happy with their lifestyles here. They get massive houses for the same money and eat like kings, granted a number of them still get paid in dollars and pounds of course, but even those that don't prefer the lifestyle.

That might be accurate, but again we mustn't look at London, New York or Auckland as the only barometer for property. Property in JHB or CPT is also generally very expensive. Once you move a bit further out it becomes much more affordable, same will hold true for first world cities.

And I always ask myself how bad can it really be if so many foreigners are happy to come life here? Granted they can flee at the drop of a hat of they wanted.

There are foreigners everywhere on earth enjoying where they are, including Nigeria, Sierra Leone, CAR, Congo, the shyter areas of the Middle East etc. All places I don't ever want to live.

Also while the likes of Naspers and other big enterprises keep pushing profits it seems like a good bet to be. When they start pulling out I'll start hearing alarm bells.

Corporations moved into Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as they could. They'll stay (and invest) as long as they can reap profits. Their interests and concern aren't the same as an individual's would be.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Then there is the question of property space and value for money. All my foreign friends are VERY happy with their lifestyles here. They get massive houses for the same money and eat like kings, granted a number of them still get paid in dollars and pounds of course, but even those that don't prefer the lifestyle.

And I always ask myself how bad can it really be if so many foreigners are happy to come life here? Granted they can flee at the drop of a hat of they wanted.

Property rental in Rotterdam is cheaper than Cape Town. Where you can pay R12k for a schitty 1 bedroom, half bathroom apartment in Oranjezicht, you'll pay 750 EUR for a fully furnished, 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment in Kralingen, one of the nicest areas of Rotterdam, and this includes electricity, gas, and water.

A lot of foreigners love Cape Town, but that's pretty much it. All of the foreigners I know from my side of the country are only here because work has forced them to be here. Yes, they live like kings, but their quality of life has taken a huge turn for the worst, and most are more than willing to tell me they'd rather be home.

Standard of living goes up; quality of life goes down. The problem in SA lately is that BOTH are going down. With the shocking state of the rand all our amenities are increasing but our salaries only get bumped by the usual 6%, if we're lucky. And then there's crime, unemployment, corruption etc.

Also while the likes of Naspers and other big enterprises keep pushing profits it seems like a good bet to be. When they start pulling out I'll start hearing alarm bells.

Don't forget that a lot of these companies either have a monopoly over the service/goods they offer, or they earn a large portion of their revenue from foreign trade, such as Naspers, the very company you use as an example.

As far as nanny-states go, I'm pretty sure what is illegal here is illegal in most countries, but we just get away with it. This usually correlates to poor law enforcement and while you're good for a R200 bribe to get out of drunken driving, you cannot complain about rampant crime. You cannot have your cake and eat it. However, having to have a permit just to have a coal braai... Now that IS ridiculous... I'm looking at you Australia

 

[The Voice]

Property rental in Rotterdam is cheaper than Cape Town. Where you can pay R12k for a schitty 1 bedroom, half bathroom apartment in Oranjezicht, you'll pay 750 EUR for a fully furnished, 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment in Kralingen, one of the nicest areas of Rotterdam, and this includes electricity, gas, and water.

A lot of foreigners love Cape Town, but that's pretty much it. All of the foreigners I know from my side of the country are only here because work has forced them to be here. Yes, they live like kings, but their quality of life has taken a huge turn for the worst, and most are more than willing to tell me they'd rather be home.

Standard of living goes up; quality of life goes down. The problem in SA lately is that BOTH are going down. With the shocking state of the rand all our amenities are increasing but our salaries only get bumped by the usual 6%, if we're lucky. And then there's crime, unemployment, corruption etc.



Don't forget that a lot of these companies either have a monopoly over the service/goods they offer, or they earn a large portion of their revenue from foreign trade, such as Naspers, the very company you use as an example.

As far as nanny-states go, I'm pretty sure what is illegal here is illegal in most countries, but we just get away with it. This usually correlates to poor law enforcement and while you're good for a R200 bribe to get out of drunken driving, you cannot complain about rampant crime. You cannot have your cake and eat it. However, having to have a permit just to have a coal braai... Now that IS ridiculous... I'm looking at you Australia

The Helderberg is still a hotspot for foreign (German and British) pensioners. While SA is no place for anyone from a first world country to try and start a life, it is very attractive for anyone with a ****ty pension who finally wants to be rich and retire in peace at a beautiful property along the coast that's been paid for in cash. Going overseas using the current exchange rate is disgusting, but coming here? Kaching!

 

[Brontosaurus]

The Helderberg is still a hotspot for foreign (German and British) pensioners. While SA is no place for anyone from a first world country to try and start a life, it is very attractive for anyone with a ****ty pension who finally wants to be rich and retire in peace at a beautiful property along the coast that's been paid for in cash. Going overseas using the current exchange rate is disgusting, but coming here? Kaching!

Sorry... I should've been more specific and put Western Cape in my post.

 

[The Voice]

Sorry... I should've been more specific and put Western Cape in my post.

I know what you meant - I just referred to the Helderberg (little Germany) as a specific example. What I said still stands, though: it's more lucrative for a pensioner to come out here than for a 20/30-something.