Emigration....... Are people serious

CarsinemiA said:
Property rental in Rotterdam is cheaper than Cape Town. Where you can pay R12k for a schitty 1 bedroom, half bathroom apartment in Oranjezicht, you'll pay 750 EUR for a fully furnished, 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment in Kralingen, one of the nicest areas of Rotterdam, and this includes electricity, gas, and water.

A lot of foreigners love Cape Town, but that's pretty much it. All of the foreigners I know from my side of the country are only here because work has forced them to be here. Yes, they live like kings, but their quality of life has taken a huge turn for the worst, and most are more than willing to tell me they'd rather be home.

Standard of living goes up; quality of life goes down. The problem in SA lately is that BOTH are going down. With the shocking state of the rand all our amenities are increasing but our salaries only get bumped by the usual 6%, if we're lucky. And then there's crime, unemployment, corruption etc.



Don't forget that a lot of these companies either have a monopoly over the service/goods they offer, or they earn a large portion of their revenue from foreign trade, such as Naspers, the very company you use as an example.

As far as nanny-states go, I'm pretty sure what is illegal here is illegal in most countries, but we just get away with it. This usually correlates to poor law enforcement and while you're good for a R200 bribe to get out of drunken driving, you cannot complain about rampant crime. You cannot have your cake and eat it. However, having to have a permit just to have a coal braai... Now that IS ridiculous... I'm looking at you Australia
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Do you honestly think Rotterdam is even a remotely fair comparison to Cape Town?

Unless your idea of Cape Town is living in the port itself, because that's what Rotterdam is.

It's an industrial complex, I've been there.

Now if you said Amsterdam was cheaper than Cape Town you would be on to something.

Even then a single example that's contrarian still doesn't really work for all of them.
 
SauRoNZA said:
Do you honestly think Rotterdam is even a remotely fair comparison to Cape Town?

Unless your idea of Cape Town is living in the port itself, because that's what Rotterdam is.

It's an industrial complex, I've been there.
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Rotterdam is a city, it isn't just the port. Like most cities it has industrial areas and residential areas/suburbs.
 
I wonder how many of these 'super happy to be living here' foreigners would not flee the moment their lives or loved ones lives are placed in horrid, violent danger because they can't afford C-Max style security on their dollars and pounds. I also know one or two people that gush about this shytehole but I know for a fact that once anything really bad happens, they're the people first out because they can. It's all show for them, extravagance can do that
 
SauRoNZA said:
My apologies, must have missed it.

Obviously I base this opinion not on my own personal experience but either on that of friends from overseas that have moved here or ones that have gone there.

Speed limits are always a common one to come up, and yes also that breaking them isn't a major concern because there aren't cameras around every corner etc.

Other road related things are the various taxes relating to different cars and their age or capacity etc. My one mate has an old Cobra and he says there is no way in hell he could afford to drive that or at all in the UK because of regulations, taxes and such.

On the flip side a motorcyclist friend who moved to Australia isn't so bothered by the speed limits and is quite happily with the number of race tracks they have their to compensate for it. His issue is around the regulations for lane splitting again, this is an even bigger problem in the US.

Then there is the whole over the top political correctness issue. I work for an American company and therefore have to go through annual ethics training. All it really is, is how to be as insufferably PC as possible so that you don't offend someone five floors down who don't know you from a bar of soap but might be offended by your background image. Our normal daily office life in SA would see us all fired, working in the office there long term would have me commuting suicide.

Then there is the question of property space and value for money. All my foreign friends are VERY happy with their lifestyles here. They get massive houses for the same money and eat like kings, granted a number of them still get paid in dollars and pounds of course, but even those that don't prefer the lifestyle.

And I always ask myself how bad can it really be if so many foreigners are happy to come life here? Granted they can flee at the drop of a hat of they wanted.

Also while the likes of Naspers and other big enterprises keep pushing profits it seems like a good bet to be. When they start pulling out I'll start hearing alarm bells.
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I see lots of bangers on the motorway in the UK. A guy at work has a 76 Mustang. Legal. Maybe you couldn't afford the UK taxes but here in the the UK we can. Yes, we biatch about them just like anyone on the the planet does about their taxes. But it's all relative.
 
Spizz said:
Are you talking about UAE? Something like 87% of the population are foreigners including an estimated 50-100,000 South Africans.
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Yes, most of that 87% are from the Indian subcontinent and massively exploited. But that's still an improvement from their sh###ty existence that would be the alternative.
 
zippy said:
Yes, most of that 87% are from the Indian subcontinent and massively exploited. But that's still an improvement from their sh###ty existence that would be the alternative.
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Sure, but it's still the opposite of 'very few people are willing to work in those countries'. Fact is, shed loads of people would give their left nut to work in these countries as the salaries are good and for Europeans at least, the standard of living is excellent.

I know what you are saying about the exploitation, and of course it happens, but the other side of the coin in UAE and Oman at least, is a fairly tolerant and crime free environment. And that's not to be sniffed at.
 
poffle said:
1) Yes this is real, but visit them or get them to visit you.
2) Bull****. I earned 5k less in Thailand and lived a far healthier and "wealthy" lifestyle.
Now i am earning the same as I was in SA and i can afford a fully furnished 3 bedroom apartment 50meters from the beach (R4,000 per month). Find a place for less than R5k in SA that is not the size of a shoe box.
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What's it like living in Thailand, local laws, police etc and how easy is it to get a work visa?
 
airborne said:
What's it like living in Thailand, local laws, police etc and how easy is it to get a work visa?
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Living in Thailand is probably one of the greatest things. The lifestyle is extremely chilled with the most amazing cuisine. Its cheaper to eat out than it is to cook your own food most of the time. R15 for a full meal.

Local laws are pretty normal, drugs are bad i.e goto jail.. you dont wanna goto a Thai jail.
Police never bothered me once in my little town, probably because they couldn't speak English so they were too scared to pull me over for anything. Just don't cause **** and you will be fine. Most refreshing change is that police are not out there to get you. Driving drunk? Cool, R5000 fine and go to a holding cell for the night.
Of course corruption exists but they don't do it with scare tactics with you literally fearing for your life..

Visas, if you have a degree and all the documentation from your place of employment it is extremely easy. Follow the procedure and you good.

There's a saying of "Jai Yen" which means cool heart. Us westerners are always in a rush to do things while the Thais will walk at a slower pace and just take that 1 second extra to do everything.. its amazing how such a reduction in pace can alter your lifestyle. Chill out man, take 1 step back, wait, then go forward.


HavocXphere said:
Damn I wish Thailand was closer....that would make for a nice month long vacation...
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I left Thailand unfortunately (not by my choice) and now my R4000 place is actually in Mauritius :)
Few pics to show what you can get for R4000, beach that is 50m away, view from one balcony.. kitchen, lounge, master bedroom + bath. Other 2 bedr and bath not in pics.

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SauRoNZA said:
Also while the likes of Naspers and other big enterprises keep pushing profits it seems like a good bet to be. When they start pulling out I'll start hearing alarm bells.
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"Pulling out" is a bit of relative term. I won't be surprised if Naspers / SASOL / MTN / etc are all "pulling out" without anyone noticing. By that i mean, they are still doing business here, but their assets and their money are moving to their respective "international divisions" . There has been a few mentions in books i've read recently that companies like Sasol might have more of their assets now outside of SA than here.

One can also say companies are pulling out by getting taken over by the likes of Wallmart / Barclays / Vodafone , where the company value is also systematically moved to their respective HQs and not necessarily re-invested in SA.

I won't be surprised if Edcon (Edgars/CNA etc) are one of those where where the americans that now owns this has moved everything worth anything out and left the company in a state of near bankruptcy.

I bet the mining companies have been doing this like crazy too, especially with the ANC being unable to make any clear regulations for/against nationalization. The ANC simply has been fumbling about with all of this without giving any assurances, if i owned any of these companies i would be doing exactly the same.

Hell i was told Sasol wanted to do fracking in the Karoo, the only reason this went all quiet is because the ANC wanted 20% ownership of any company that wants to do this PLUS certainty that they can gain an additional 30% of ownership (by paying preferential rates) when they want when things start looking profitable. So how do you get around this sort of thinking? You move your HQ to Mauritius where the ANC can't touch it.
 
Anyway, back on topic,

I must say i also feel like the proverbial frog in the slowly boiling pot . I lived VERY comfortably in SA , i was offered a job in the Netherlands a year ago with all the visa stuff sorted out entirely by the employer. I declined it , purely because i could see i would be taking a big step back in my career and will move from a home-owner + car-owner + alot of extra; to renting , no car and relatively less money to spend.

In hindsight, one can argue it is just a foot in the door, but ironically that very same company also had "layoffs" in the exact same period i would have been there, so i would have been looking for new work within 6 months of arrival or be coming back.

So now i'm on look out again, but it's definitely not as motivating as one would think if you earn a good SA salary and are in an industry where BEE/AA simply do not work very far (you can either do the job or you can't, there are very little shortcuts), so there's a TON of work in SA in my field with a ton of potential of walking into very high paying positions (simply because everyone left or no one can do it) whereas in europe i would need to start from a junior type position and hopefully by the time i'm 50 will be in a senior position again...... unless i get the right job from the get-go which is quite tricky....and then things like savings/pension becomes a MAJOR issue, especially if you are not a citizen of said country.
 
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SauRoNZA said:
Do you honestly think Rotterdam is even a remotely fair comparison to Cape Town?

Unless your idea of Cape Town is living in the port itself, because that's what Rotterdam is.

It's an industrial complex, I've been there.

Now if you said Amsterdam was cheaper than Cape Town you would be on to something.

Even then a single example that's contrarian still doesn't really work for all of them.
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For the most part it is still a lot more expensive to have the same standard of living in most overseas destinations than it is here, but that gap is growing ever more smaller. And the remuneration mostly covers all that - I'll be taking two steps backwards in job title and responsibilities, but I'll be earning more than I am now.
 
An interesting article by probably the best NZ immigration company:

I am sure that you were always told by your parents to tell the truth. As the old line goes, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear by being honest and truthful. Right?

What happens however when one rule contradicts a second that you must comply with later in order to win the game – and you have to comply with both to get what you need?

Should you lie to achieve the aim of the second if the first stops you achieving the outcome the second rule requires?

What am I talking about?

Most skilled migrants need jobs to achieve the stated aims of the Government residence programme. To get jobs, employers demand that a candidate be in New Zealand. That means getting permission to enter New Zealand either before you travel or at the border.

Only trouble with that is Visitor Visa rules are not compatible with Residence Visa rules.
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It'll be worth your while to read the rest of the article. This company also hosts free seminars in South Africa on immigration to NZ. Good friends of mine have used them too.

http://www.immigration.co.nz/immigration-blog/post/truth-whole-truth-nothing-truth/
 
jsheed_sa said:
SNIP. Is this Mauritius or Thailand now?
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Mauritius

In Thailand my rent was R2000 for a 3 bedroom free standing house, garden, fully furnished. It was not as nice as the houses us westerners are used to.. but for that price, worth it.
Thailand has an extremely low cost of living if you are outside Bangkok or tourist areas:
Having a total salary of R13,000 pm. I was able to save R24,000 in 4 months.
So yeah, it cost me about R7000 to live extremely comfortably, that includes loads of beer drinking, ciggies, rent, petrol, indulging in western food cravings regularly you name it.

MUR cost of living is quite a lot higher.
 
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The plan is to move in Feb. Ive already spent a month in the country of my choice, I just have a few things to wrap up.
 
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