F1 2024

[thestaggy]

Then let it be optional or a qualifying factor that can be exercised by the winning team if they win. Even better.

US$200 million entry fee to F1 plus the US$145 million operating budget.

Average F2 team runs on a ~US$10 million budget which is mostly funded by the sponsors of the drivers they hire.

Even if you scrap the entry fee into F1, you are still looking at a team increasing their budget ten-fold to even get onto the grid.

The next problem is that an F1 team must be a chassis manufacturer. F1 isn't a spec series, so you need to design and build your own chassis. There is a work around here which Dallara has notably been used to exploit over the years by designing a chassis on behalf of a team. Currently, that is Haas. Say an F2 team gets promoted or earns the right to be promoted, how do they come up with a chassis? Current rules will prevent another team from selling them one and there are only so many non-F1 entities that can design a chassis, Dallara being one of the very, very few.

Relegation would also likely result in the financial meltdown of an F1 team. How would Sauber or Williams survive a season in F2 with their overheads? Running their facilities alone (both have their own windtunnels, manufacturing facilities, etc) costs a fortune. A failed F1 season could also kill a promoted team.

No current F1 team would agree to a promotion-relegation system as it would almost certainly doom the relegated team. I don't see any F2 team wanting to move up based on the massive financial investment it would require with no guarantee that ot would even work out for more than one season.

 

[quovadis]

US$200 million entry fee to F1 plus the US$145 million operating budget.

Average F2 team runs on a ~US$10 million budget which is mostly funded by the sponsors of the drivers they hire.

Even if you scrap the entry fee into F1, you are still looking at a team increasing their budget ten-fold to even get onto the grid.

I'm not suggesting they scrap the cost but simply elevating F2 and making it the route to F1 which is based on merit. All the other factors such as financial, technical etc should remain as per F1 standards if they choose to exercise the option.

The next problem is that an F1 team must be a chassis manufacturer. F1 isn't a spec series, so you need to design and build your own chassis. There is a work around here which Dallara has notably been used to exploit over the years by designing a chassis on behalf of a team. Currently, that is Haas. Say an F2 team gets promoted or earns the right to be promoted, how do they come up with a chassis? Current rules will prevent another team from selling them one and there are only so many non-F1 entities that can design a chassis, Dallara being one of the very, very few.

Currently a prospective F1 team has to do it anyway.

Relegation would also likely result in the financial meltdown of an F1 team. How would Sauber or Williams survive a season in F2 with their overheads? Running their facilities alone (both have their own windtunnels, manufacturing facilities, etc) costs a fortune. A failed F1 season could also kill a promoted team.

No current F1 team would agree to a promotion-relegation system as it would almost certainly doom the relegated team. I don't see any F2 team wanting to move up based on the massive financial investment it would require with no guarantee that ot would even work out for more than one season.

Hence why I suggested an 11th team. I have no issue with teams having to actually be competitive. I'm tired of the same old teams in the same old positions milking the sport as if they're actual contenders and then blocking any qualified entrants based on money and value add arguments.

 

[thestaggy]

I'm not suggesting they scrap the cost but simply elevating F2 and making it the route to F1 which is based on merit. All the other factors such as financial, technical etc should remain as per F1 standards if they choose to exercise the option.


Currently a prospective F1 team has to do it anyway.


Hence why I suggested an 11th team. I have no issue with teams having to actually be competitive. I'm tired of the same old teams in the same old positions milking the sport as if they're actual contenders and then blocking any qualified entrants based on money and value add arguments.

I mean, F1 has always been like that.

9 of the 10 teams on the grid are legacy teams. Haas is the only new ''startup'', and they wouldn't be viable without the budget cap.

The youngest team on the grid is Red Bull, whose roots go back to Stewart (1997).

Ferrari, McLaren and Williams have been around for decades. Sauber have been here since the 90s. Mercedes is the Tyrrell legacy team. Alpine is the Toleman/Benetton legacy team from the 80s. VCARB is Minardi from the 80s. Aston Marin is Jordan from the 90s.

F1 has historically been difficult to enter, and it's been even harder to stick around, as evidenced by all of 3-teams (Ferrari, McLaren and Williams) being able to operate under their own identity throughout their history while a 4th (Sauber) has had to occasionally take on another identity to survive (BMW, Alfa, whatever the hell it is now). The rest have just been a case of recyling an estalished team.

 

[quovadis]

I mean, F1 has always been like that.

Sure but it appears they're now gatekeeping more than ever.

 

[MaxQz]

Yeah, the relegation system won't work with the huge amounts of money involved. Because then the lower classes would need a huge overhaul as well...which is more money again. A relegated team, or any other team looking to make the step up would need big incentives.

Another failed example of a manufacturer trying its hand at F1 was Toyota, they had lots of money to spend, but if you don't have the right ingredients to make it work you will fail as well. They managed 13 podiums without a win and 3 poles and 3 fastest laps over a 8 year period. They tried getting Schumi to join them...wonder how they would have done if he joined them, hmmm.

 

[Baxteen]

Yeah, the relegation system won't work with the huge amounts of money involved. Because then the lower classes would need a huge overhaul as well...which is more money again. A relegated team, or any other team looking to make the step up would need big incentives.

Another failed example of a manufacturer trying its hand at F1 was Toyota, they had lots of money to spend, but if you don't have the right ingredients to make it work you will fail as well. They managed 13 podiums without a win and 3 poles and 3 fastest laps over a 8 year period. They tried getting Schumi to join them...wonder how they would have done if he joined them, hmmm.

I dont know I wont say they failed.
they spent a lot of money doing RnD for the 2009 season, but had to pull out of the sport at the end of 2008.
so they sold the entire team to Ross Braun.
the car was miles ahead and that is why Jenson button was the 2009 driver champion.
Brawn GP then went on to become Mercedes. and Shumi did join them, and he was replaced by Lewis.

so Toyota did the ground work for the 2009 season win.
got Shumi in 2010
and won 8 constructors championships in a row from 2014 to 2021.

sure it was not under the Toyota brand name, but the work they put in and the team they put in place did all of that work.

now if you used BMW as an example I could have let the comment slide.....

 

[Agent_Smith]

I dont know I wont say they failed.
they spent a lot of money doing RnD for the 2009 season, but had to pull out of the sport at the end of 2008.
so they sold the entire team to Ross Braun.
the car was miles ahead and that is why Jenson button was the 2009 driver champion.
Brawn GP then went on to become Mercedes. and Shumi did join them, and he was replaced by Lewis.

so Toyota did the ground work for the 2009 season win.
got Shumi in 2010
and won 8 constructors championships in a row from 2014 to 2021.

sure it was not under the Toyota brand name, but the work they put in and the team they put in place did all of that work.

now if you used BMW as an example I could have let the comment slide.....

Didn't BAR Honda become Brawn which became Mercedes?

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

I dont know I wont say they failed.
they spent a lot of money doing RnD for the 2009 season, but had to pull out of the sport at the end of 2008.
so they sold the entire team to Ross Braun.
the car was miles ahead and that is why Jenson button was the 2009 driver champion.
Brawn GP then went on to become Mercedes. and Shumi did join them, and he was replaced by Lewis.

so Toyota did the ground work for the 2009 season win.
got Shumi in 2010
and won 8 constructors championships in a row from 2014 to 2021.

sure it was not under the Toyota brand name, but the work they put in and the team they put in place did all of that work.

now if you used BMW as an example I could have let the comment slide.....

OMG. F1 expert right here.

 

[Baxteen]

Didn't BAR Honda become Brawn which became Mercedes?

you are correct. it was honda not Toyota.

my bad.

 

[Anelist]

was Guenther fired @ Haas & who replaced him?

 

[quovadis]

Yeah, the relegation system won't work with the huge amounts of money involved. Because then the lower classes would need a huge overhaul as well...which is more money again. A relegated team, or any other team looking to make the step up would need big incentives.

I have no doubt that Liberty will elevate both F2 and F3 in years to come.

 

[Agent_Smith]

you are correct. it was honda not Toyota.

my bad.

All good

 

[thestaggy]

Yeah, the relegation system won't work with the huge amounts of money involved. Because then the lower classes would need a huge overhaul as well...which is more money again. A relegated team, or any other team looking to make the step up would need big incentives.

Another failed example of a manufacturer trying its hand at F1 was Toyota, they had lots of money to spend, but if you don't have the right ingredients to make it work you will fail as well. They managed 13 podiums without a win and 3 poles and 3 fastest laps over a 8 year period. They tried getting Schumi to join them...wonder how they would have done if he joined them, hmmm.

I honestly think this is where the Toyota project failed. They never got a driver to lead them.

They had some strong drivers and started the project off with experienced drivers to create a base, but they never got someone truly at the top of their game who could take them to the next level.

They should have thrown some of that money at Michael, Kimi, Lewis or Fernando. Those were the drivers at the time who they could have built around. Michael after leaving Ferrari would have been worth throwing money at.

 

[MaxQz]

I honestly think this is where the Toyota project failed. They never got a driver to lead them.

They had some strong drivers and started the project off with experienced drivers to create a base, but they never got someone truly at the top of their game who could take them to the next level.

They should have thrown some of that money at Michael, Kimi, Lewis or Fernando. Those were the drivers at the time who they could have built around. Michael after leaving Ferrari would have been worth throwing money at.

It was around 2004 when Schumi had thoughts of retiring, but extended with Ferrari for another 2 years instead (wanting to help guide Massa in 2006) just to retire at end 2006, but it was during 2004 already when Toyota offered huge sums of money to him. To snatch Schumi would've been the ultimate for Toyota, and obviously some technical staff would follow along with Schumi if a deal was made. In the end it was Schumi who was at a turning point and wanted to retire instead after all the years with Ferrari and hard grinds they made to achieve their success (from a **** Ferrari to a conquering Ferrari). I guess he reckoned he had done that endeavour with Ferrari and didn't see fit to do it again.

Kimi wanted to drive for Ferrari, being an established team after his failure at McLaren to win a WDC, he knew he could at Ferrari.
Alonso coming off two WDC wanted the McLaren challenge instead, which was still a top team to be reckoned with and could still win another WDC with them, and had thoughts on beating the new guy on the block Lewis, who he thought would be a pushover.
Lewis of course was a McLaren prodigy, so a rookie who still needed to do the job with an established front running team before he could think of doing 'god-like' work for another team.

 

[SlowInternet]

So will we see Newey at Aston Martin next year?

 

[thestaggy]

It was around 2004 when Schumi had thoughts of retiring, but extended with Ferrari for another 2 years instead (wanting to help guide Massa in 2006) just to retire at end 2006, but it was during 2004 already when Toyota offered huge sums of money to him. To snatch Schumi would've been the ultimate for Toyota, and obviously some technical staff would follow along with Schumi if a deal was made. In the end it was Schumi who was at a turning point and wanted to retire instead after all the years with Ferrari and hard grinds they made to achieve their success (from a **** Ferrari to a conquering Ferrari). I guess he reckoned he had done that endeavour with Ferrari and didn't see fit to do it again.

Kimi wanted to drive for Ferrari, being an established team after his failure at McLaren to win a WDC, he knew he could at Ferrari.
Alonso coming off two WDC wanted the McLaren challenge instead, which was still a top team to be reckoned with and could still win another WDC with them, and had thoughts on beating the new guy on the block Lewis, who he thought would be a pushover.
Lewis of course was a McLaren prodigy, so a rookie who still needed to do the job with an established front running team before he could think of doing 'god-like' work for another team.

Michael didn't want to leave Ferrari when he did. He wasn't ready to retire.

As is Ferrari tradition, there was infighting; Luca di Montezemolo vs Jean Todt/Michael Schumacher. Ferrari's on-track success had given Todt/Michael a lot of influence in Maranello, much to Luca's chagrin. One of the bones of contention was Luca wanting to move on from Michael, while Todt wanted to keep Michael alongside Massa. Luca won the power struggle, Michael retired, Brawn went on ''gardening leave'' at the same time and Todt, the man behind Ferrari's recent success, would exit Ferrari within 3-years. Ferrari have only won three championships (1 x WDC, 2 x WCC) since Luca di Montezemolo made his power move, and none since Todt left.

Schumacher pushed out from Ferrari in 2006 - Page 2 - F1technical.net

www.f1technical.net

The end of 2006 saw Fernando, Michael and Kimi all coming to the end of their contracts. With their budget, Toyota could have made a move for any of them had they wanted to.

 

[Tinuva]

Seems that Ricciardo to red bull was so so close to happening. Some Dutch GP promotional material has Daniel as Max's teammate.

This details Daniel's career in chronological order and ends with "As Verstappen's teammate he continues to strive for success"

 

[Speedster]

Seems that Ricciardo to red bull was so so close to happening. Some Dutch GP promotional material has Daniel as Max's teammate.

This details Daniel's career in chronological order and ends with "As Verstappen's teammate he continues to strive for success"

View attachment 1749441

I'm disappointed that RB even considered giving him the seat. The guys a has been. Rather find a quality youngster and give him the seat.

 

[quovadis]

Seems that Ricciardo to red bull was so so close to happening. Some Dutch GP promotional material has Daniel as Max's teammate.

This details Daniel's career in chronological order and ends with "As Verstappen's teammate he continues to strive for success"

Probably more like some employee decided to use Grok or ChatGPT to write promo material.

 

[Jean Claude Vaaldamme]

So last week there was a sudden amendment to the rules regarding the brake system.
So is it just for clarity or did a team cheat and will we see a team suddenly be slower after the break.