'I am a non-voting Atheist'

We do have a democracy, but I think what Palimino means is that if this is what democracy brings us, then we don't want democracy we want something better.

Democracy is rule of the "people", which means rule by majority vote. The question then obviously becomes, how does the opinion of the majority entitle person X to dictate to everyone, including those who did not vote for him/her how to live their lives and under what rules/conditions they shall live their lives.

It is not right and any half-wit can see that. It is not about putting my pupper into power over your puppet.
 
Some reasons why people don't vote.


By Lew ROckwell.


A lot of people have asked me why I do not vote.

1) Voting is the sacrament of the civil religion. I’m a political atheist.
2) Not voting bugs the regime, and no wonder. Such abstinence, like not complying in other ways, weakens them. What if they held an election and nobody came?
3) It’s a pain in the neck.
4) Your vote doesn’t count, unless the election is decided by a single vote. You are far more likely to be killed on the way to the polls than to have that happen.
5) The candidates itch to rule others. There is no lesser evil.
6) Politics is not our salvation. Indeed, the whole system is corrupt from top to bottom.

Robert Murphy's take on not voting...


To put it in a nutshell, democracy is a repugnant and ridiculous system, and so I have no ethical duty to vote. And then, my vote by itself will almost certainly have no effect on the election, and hence I have no pragmatic interest in voting. So why would I do something morally dubious if it won’t even make a difference?

Even though I’m sure you’ve heard this before, let’s review just why your individual vote does NOT count. In order for your vote to make a difference (in the presidential race), your state would have to be decided by a margin of exactly one. In other words, suppose you don’t vote. So long as the candidate who wins your state does so by a margin of two or more people, then your decision to abstain meant absolutely nothing.

But it gets worse. Suppose against all odds that it works out that the popular vote in your state is a dead tie, considering everybody else who votes, and then you cast the tie-breaking vote in favor of your candidate. (We already know this would never ever happen.) Even so, your vote still only affects the identity of the next president, if the margin in the Electoral College is close enough such that your state decides the outcome.

OK, now I should dispose of some of the obligatory objections.

* “That doesn’t make sense. If you’re saying it’s rational to not vote, then nobody should vote. But then you get to write yourself in as president. So then everybody should vote. Duh, you economists are stupid.”
—> No, there is nothing wrong with cost/benefit analysis, so long as you are framing the costs and benefits correctly. The reason I am virtually certain my vote won’t affect the outcome, is that I am virtually certain that millions of Americans will stupidly vote. When Free Advice gains 10 million daily readers, perhaps I will revise my forecasts of voter turnout.

(Technically, if you do a formal model the symmetric Nash equilibrium is a “mixed strategy” where everybody is indifferent between voting or not, and so everyone is willing to pick a strategy of voting with probability x, where x is really small. So x times the whole population means you expect a certain amount of people to show up and vote, and that expectation is just enough to render you indifferent. But in the real world, we’re not in a Nash equilibrium–at least, not if everyone just gets utility from influencing the outcome of the election–and so I get strictly more utility by not voting. Also, I should add that I don’t really view the world as if I’m “in” a game theoretic model, I’m just showing how there’s nothing contradictory about the analytical framework.)

* “What if everyone thought like you?”
—> If everyone thought like me that would be great. Nobody would vote, and so 535 people in Washington DC saying, “Send us half your income so we can bomb people and bail out bankers” would be a funny joke. If you want to do a Kantian deal, and pick the action you wish everyone else would, then why in the world are you voting for a guy you yourself admit is the “lesser of two evils”? That makes no sense at all. It’s one thing to do a morally odious action because it provides tangible utilitarian benefits; e.g. making the bus swerve so it hits 3 people instead of 30. But why participate in voting in a guy you think will do evil, when your participation doesn’t do anything to limit the evil? If you think Obama/McCain is the worse candidate, your vote for McCain/Obama doesn’t do anything to contain him. Obama/McCain would win/lose with or without your vote, with about 99.9999% certainty.

* “If you don’t vote, then you have no right to complain about our government.”
—> This is just about the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard, and there is stiff competition in this category. We all agree that our government is run by thieves and liars, right? OK, so how do they get in there? Because voters put them there. So you’re telling me that I’m responsible for the horrible people in DC, rather than the people who actually voted for them?

* “It’s because of the apathy of people like you that our system isn’t working properly.”
—> This is related to the above objection. I really would like people who believe this, to just think through the implications of this type of statement. It means that the people who actually vote are (in general) morons and/or evil, whereas the people who don’t vote are (in general) wise and virtuous. You have to believe that, if you claim that increasing voter turnout will improve the politicians we end up getting. I thank you for the kind words, but I think you are mistaken. If (as in some countries) the government forced people to vote, I don’t think our politicians would suddenly become honest statesmen (and women). The reason democracy yields awful results is that it’s a repugnant, ridiculous system, not because we’re too lazy to “make it work.”

WHY DEMOCRACY IS A REPUGNANT, RIDICULOUS SYSTEM
==================================================

I’ll close by defending those strong words. Imagine if you had to get your brakes fixed, but you weren’t allowed to pick the company to do the work. Instead, there was an election for city mechanic, and everyone in your city had the option to cast a vote deciding which person got to fix your brakes. Also, that person could then decide how much to charge you, and, you didn’t even have the option of switching to riding the bus–you had to get in your car everyday after the work was done. Would you like that system?

If you are a parent, I’ve got an even better one. Suppose you didn’t get to choose who babysits your kid(s), but instead the position is decided by majority rule. If you are just skimming this it probably isn’t sinking in. Seriously, imagine that you couldn’t control who watches your kid(s), but that perfect strangers had just as much individual say as you did. And not only that, but that the pool of eligible candidates would be restricted, to those potential babysitters who didn’t mind enduring a year-long investigation into their lives, with the backers of other potential babysitters starting nasty rumors and so on. Do you think the outcome would be good? Or would you rather the freedom to pick your own babysitter, using your own criteria?

Well, I hope you can see now what I mean when I say democracy is a repugnant and ridiculous system. It’s true, you could argue that there are some things like national defense or the legal system, where it is practically impossible to have the freedom that we all agree is ideal in cases like fixing your brakes or hiring a babysitter. If that’s your view, I encourage you to check out this pamphlet [pdf].

In conclusion, I don’t vote because I see no reason to participate in the collective anointing of someone who will violate property rights and end up killing innocent people, when my vote doesn’t even have the slightest chance of influencing the outcome.
 
Last edited:
Why I Do Not Vote

by Michael S. Rozeff


Two questions come up quite often in e-mails I receive. One is why I do not vote. Another is what a person can do to change the system toward greater liberty, or what I expect to be the manner in which the system gets changed toward greater liberty. Another thing is that letters quite often express resignation, despair, hopelessness, pessimism, cynicism, and frustration.

I don't vote for several reasons.

I don't wish to endorse the system that I think is no good. If I vote I am saying that I believe in voting and that I believe in majority rule. I don't believe in majority rule as applied to the political situations in which it is used.

I don't believe in representative government under our Constitution. The Constitution has no legitimate authority over me. I have never signed off on it.

I do not wish to endorse a system that has produced and continues to produce what I think are pragmatically bad results.

I do not wish to endorse a system that has produced and continues to produce what I think are evil results. My religious beliefs are totally inconsistent with what the State does.

I don't vote because I believe that everyone should be able to exercise the right of political choice. By that, I mean the right to choose the kind of system he or she wants to live with. It does not mean selecting a candidate who then works within a system not of your choice. I want to choose my dessert. I want ice cream. I do not want to be told that I can choose raspberry or lemon jello, or write in orange jello if I feel like it.

I don't vote because I do not want to confuse myself. I believe in dissolving the national government and the Constitution. If I vote, I am more likely to start thinking that my aim is reform of the system. It isn't. My aim is that each of us has the liberty to choose his own system of government. If I voted, I'd soon become confused. A good example of such confusion is the Libertarian Party.

I do not vote because I have no intention of imposing my system on you. If my candidate won, I would not want him to impose a system on the minority that it did not want. I don't want the majority to impose its system on me now, so I cannot be in favor of my imposing my system on them if I win an election.

Even if I believed in the system as it is, I would not vote. The main reason for that is that my vote is totally meaningless. The representatives will vote on many items that they should not be voting on when they get in office. My vote has no impact on how they vote on these many affairs. I would be fooling myself if I thought it did. A secondary reason is that I get no psychological satisfaction from identifying myself with a party or candidate. They invariably do things I dislike, and I have no way of registering any control over them.
 
I think at the end of the day it comes down to this distinction in ideology.

People who believe that you must vote, believe in majority rule. They believe rule of the majority by vote is justified.

People who do not believe in majority rule, are thus perfectly justified in not voting.

It comes down to do you believe in majority rule as ethical and justified or not?
 
"Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" - H.L. Mencken.
 
people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country.
 
people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country.

i do find it somewhat ironic that those who decry the system still benefit from it.
i'm not entirely sure how that point of view works.
 
people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country.
Exactly, there should be a fine of some sort on your rates and taxes or tax bill so that if you dont vote you get a fine.
Go and spoil your ballot I dont care but get off your fat a$$ and go and put in some effort.
You have no right to complain if you fail to put in some effort
 
There's laws regarding liquor, drugs, murder, theft etc but none to force people to vote? They should seriously force people to vote. What good is a democracy if you don't have all the votes/opinions of the whole nation?
 
What do you do when you encounter an ignorant fool? Well, if the ignorant fool is my friend then I'll spend some time trying to convince him that what he's doing is foolish. If the ignorant fool is not my friend, I'll simply call him an ignorant fool, and let him die an ignorant fool. Don't waste your breath on them.
 
"people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country."

If I can skip on the supposed "benefits" does that mean I can be exempted from taxation please?

"so what should it then be replaced with?"

At the worst, monarchy is superior to democracy. At the best, nothing more than private property rights based on arbitration and thousands of years of customary and common law. Order is emergent and societies are cohesive without the boot of the State hanging over all our necks. I am open to people forming governments across properties that consent, provided they abide by the Misesian principle of universal and unlimited right to secession. However, these entities would then not classify as governments as they would be completely voluntary and would then not have a monopoly over the use of force.

"i do find it somewhat ironic that those who decry the system still benefit from it.
i'm not entirely sure how that point of view works"


I "benefit" from certain government activities such as the socialized roads and socialized electricity infrastructure in as much as I do not have the choice to opt into the services of a competitor. In any case, it would cost me and everyone else a heck of a lot less if these services were left to private enterprise so I certainly do pay for my government "benefits", it's just an unwilling rip-off.

"Exactly, there should be a fine of some sort on your rates and taxes or tax bill so that if you dont vote you get a fine. Go and spoil your ballot I dont care but get off your fat a$$ and go and put in some effort. You have no right to complain if you fail to put in some effort"


I do not vote, but I still get robbed... sorry, I mean "taxed". Damned if you, damned if you don't.

There's laws regarding liquor, drugs, murder, theft etc but none to force people to vote? They should seriously force people to vote. What good is a democracy if you don't have all the votes/opinions of the whole nation?

Forcing people to vote, eh? Wow, so if people voluntarily withdraw their consent by non-violent inaction you'd use force to coerce people into an activity they would otherwise not engage in. This democracy stuff sounds so free and peaceful when you say it like that!

Forget about if nobody showed up to vote, imagine if nobody consented to robbery... sorry, I mean paid their taxes. Then there'd be real trouble :-)
 
"people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country."

If I can skip on the supposed "benefits" does that mean I can be exempted from taxation please?

"so what should it then be replaced with?"

At the worst, monarchy is superior to democracy. At the best, nothing more than private property rights based on arbitration and thousands of years of customary and common law. Order is emergent and societies are cohesive without the boot of the State hanging over all our necks. I am open to people forming governments across properties that consent, provided they abide by the Misesian principle of universal and unlimited right to secession. However, these entities would then not classify as governments as they would be completely voluntary and would then not have a monopoly over the use of force.

"i do find it somewhat ironic that those who decry the system still benefit from it.
i'm not entirely sure how that point of view works"


I "benefit" from certain government activities such as the socialized roads and socialized electricity infrastructure in as much as I do not have the choice to opt into the services of a competitor. In any case, it would cost me and everyone else a heck of a lot less if these services were left to private enterprise so I certainly do pay for my government "benefits", it's just an unwilling rip-off.

"Exactly, there should be a fine of some sort on your rates and taxes or tax bill so that if you dont vote you get a fine. Go and spoil your ballot I dont care but get off your fat a$$ and go and put in some effort. You have no right to complain if you fail to put in some effort"


I do not vote, but I still get robbed... sorry, I mean "taxed". Damned if you, damned if you don't.

There's laws regarding liquor, drugs, murder, theft etc but none to force people to vote? They should seriously force people to vote. What good is a democracy if you don't have all the votes/opinions of the whole nation?

Forcing people to vote, eh? Wow, so if people voluntarily withdraw their consent by non-violent inaction you'd use force to coerce people into an activity they would otherwise not engage in. This democracy stuff sounds so free and peaceful when you say it like that!

Forget about if nobody showed up to vote, imagine if nobody consented to robbery... sorry, I mean paid their taxes. Then there'd be real trouble :-)

Sniff, that was so beautiful. You, whoever you are, are my hero.

I absolutely LOVE how people think they have the right to FORCE people to vote. They actually are advocating people going around and putting guns to the heads of those who don't vote in order to coerce them into voting. What if they resist? Shoot them?!

Wow. Just. Wow.
 
people who do not vote are lazy, ignorant and uninformed. They do not care enough to get off their fat arses and have a say in changing this country for the better. They do not deserve any of the benefits of a well run country.

The irony is whilst you are trying to insult those who don't vote you are also paying them a huge compliment as I pointed out earlier.

You see what you are saying is the current system/situation/political environment is messed up. And it is messed up by those in power, who are put there by the majority of VOTERS. So the majority of voters are idiots or morons who clearly don't know who the right person to vote for is.

However you are implying that in order to correct this the non-voters must now vote, which implies that THEIR VOTE will be correct, in that they will put the correct person in charge to fix the system.

Meaning, the majority of voters are ignorent morons, and the majority of non-voters are wise, intelligent and virtueous. (If they weren't how would their voting change anything?)
 
If they weren't how would their voting change anything?

By actually getting off their lazy fat arses and actually doing something constructive about this country rather than letting others do their thinking and campaigning for them.
But then you probably don't pay any taxes either or contribute to this country in any meaningful way.

If only a few percent of the 30% of people who don't vote in SA decided to make the effort to turn the idiot box off for a few minutes, put their beer down, get their creaking fat frames up out of their chairs and vote for change in this country, it would mean the ANC would lose any hope of a 2/3rds majority, meaning we deny them the opportunity to force through any more of their corrupt and racist laws.

Then, in the next election we take a few more percentage points away from them, and again and again, until they lose all credibility and a different more constructive party comes to power.

By not voting all you are saying is you are lazy, ignorant, uneducated and couldn't give a damn. Sorry it hurts so much to hear it, but it's true.
 
i'm an athiest, but still believe in doing something instead of nothing. my only problem this year is that i might not get to vote due to a crisis, but i'm still going to give it a darn good try. politics and religion don't make a happy couple lol.
 
... blah...

Did you even read WilD_CaT's post? http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...ting-Atheist?p=5694199&viewfull=1#post5694199

In particular:

I really would like people who believe this, to just think through the implications of this type of statement. It means that the people who actually vote are (in general) morons and/or evil, whereas the people who don’t vote are (in general) wise and virtuous. You have to believe that, if you claim that increasing voter turnout will improve the politicians we end up getting.

QED, bitch.

The only form of government I will support - and one the world will never have, for obvious reasons - is a meritocracy. Most companies work this way and, oddly enough, they are more productive and effective than any government by orders of magnitude.

When you have the right people making vital decisions, you get the right decisions. When you have people who are completely unqualified to make vital decisions, making said decisions, then everything goes to hell. Meritocracy is the former, democracy is the latter.
 
By not voting all you are saying is you are lazy, ignorant, uneducated and couldn't give a damn. Sorry it hurts so much to hear it, but it's true.

Demonizing people you don't agree with certainly isn't true or witty, it's just sad. People have different opinions - your life would be easier if you learned to deal with that.
 
When you have the right people making vital decisions, you get the right decisions. When you have people who are completely unqualified to make vital decisions, making said decisions, then everything goes to hell. Meritocracy is the former, democracy is the latter.

"Meritocracy itself is not a form of government, but rather an ideology. Meritocracy itself is frequently confused as being a type of government, rather than correctly as a methodology or factor used in or for, the appointment of individuals to government."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

i agree with your point of public servants being appointed on merit, but i fail to see how democracy precludes meritocracy.
 
"By not voting all you are saying is you are lazy, ignorant, uneducated and couldn't give a damn. Sorry it hurts so much to hear it, but it's true."

Actually, by not voting, all I'm admitting is that I don't agree choosing who is going to steal from me is some kind important and meaningful act.
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X